Warp Convoys

[Unicron]

It's been interesting recently to read through the older Spaceflight Chronology (1980) and wonder how Trek might differ if more of its ideas had been used. One of the cool ideas is the Provider class transports, which formed the basis for warp "super convoys" designed to help manage the Federation's ever-growing trade and need for supplies.

The convoy system was composed of eight Providers and four warp tugs, possibly the Master class, with a dozen or more cargo cylinders that were each a kilometer long. Every transport would have its systems linked so they could operate in unison, albeit at relatively low speeds on a full load (the maximum mentioned seemed to be warp 4, and then only with newer technology becoming available around TMP). One of the more memorable convoys helped evacuate a planet of 10 million from the effects of a supernova, with the assistance of other Federation ships.

In some ways, it's a bit like the Ptolemy concept on a much larger scale. What are your thoughts?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I would imagine that such convoys are fairly commonplace among civilian vessels and are perhaps more regularly seen operating in well-established trade routes within the Federation. Further out on the frontier and in less traveled sectors, perhaps not so much, IMO. In such instances, Starfleet may use ships such as the Enterprise to carry out cargo runs from time to time, especially if she's quicker than the average freighter.

 

[SchwEnt]

Oh, you've got my attention with The Spaceflight Chronology!

I agree, these super-convoys make sense and would have to exist.
ST has always shown individual freighters and cargo ships, because it's always old Earth sea-faring analogies.
And sure, singular trader ships and supply vessels would have their roles.

But to support multi-planet systems, the demands would be extraordinary, MEGA convoys like this would have to exist.
It'd be something to see on-screen.

 

[Unicron]

I agree with both of you, and I generally tend more towards the "big fleet" concept - that is, many of the build numbers for fanon and offscreen ship designs tend to be more logical in numbers (say, 40 destroyers or cruisers in a class, maybe 10-20 dreadnoughts etc, 30 or so transports etc) than smaller builds IMO. Some of the FASA numbers are rather silly, like the Klingon Empire building more than a thousand D-7s alone, admittedly. Convoys of this size would need a large escort force as well, at least in border regions like the Triangle that could be potentially more dangerous.

But as a personal head canon rule, I don't see why Starfleet wouldn't build a "reasonable" number of ships in a class unless there's a compelling reason, like highly specialized builds or a design that doesn't work very well, like the Defiant in its early days. The Chronology does assume the Federation has its own currency (credits) which form the basis for its economy, and that ship construction is a big expense even with advanced technology. It also assumes that, when a world becomes a full member of the Federation, they accept certain basic restrictions on their sovereignty - they can't maintain large naval forces as Starfleet assumes responsibility, but they can maintain small local fleets that are perhaps more similar to a coast guard. As one example.

The Chronology and FASA also assumed that the Federation was larger than the 150 members or so mentioned in canon - at least 500 per the Chronology, although that seems to include several different categories of membership (full members, associate members, colonies, and planets under Federation purview via the Prime Directive). But certainly a vast region of space, and the large size is also mentioned as source of political strain at some of the Babel conferences. And this is naturally only up until the early movie era.

 

[StarCruiser]

I've had the Spaceflight Chronology book for so long... I almost forgot that I had it.

 

[publiusr]

Those look much larger than Ptolemy pods... maybe the "Billion Ton Super Spacers" from the TMP novel?

I might have Muletrain as a generic ship and show ringships before and behind myself..
as you see with placement of locomotive engines.

 

[Unicron]

Yes, from the description, it's a much larger system. Each cargo pod is a kilometer long and a typical convoy has 10-12 linked pods, plus the transports and any escort and support ships needed.

 

[BK613]

Hmm, the way I read the description, the superconvoy is 100 kilometers long, is pulled by the eight front ships, with four other ships every ten pods to—in modern terms—extend the warp field over the entire train.
So that would be 100 pods, each a kilometer long, 8 front ships, and 36 (or 40) additional tugs.
Also, if that towing image is to scale, the pods also seem to be about a kilometer wide, since the towing ship's beam is 220m and the pod looks to be five of those ships wide.

The infrastructure to load/unload these things must be insanely huge as well.

 

[C.E. Evans]

This could be an area dominated by countless civilian shipping companies more so than Starfleet. Yes, Trek generally follows Starfleet vessels, but there has to be some things that Starfleet doesn't cover or isn't the only game in town. I could see various shipping companies across numerous worlds vying for business moving freight from one end of the Federation to the other, and these convoys could be par for the course in that industry, While Starfleet is definitely a participant in the deep-space transportation trade, I think there are many more civilian companies that do that but just isn't seen all that often in Trek (the vast majority of cargo runs could be uneventful, boring as hell, and about as entertaining as watching paint dry).

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, I seem to recall FASA suggesting a Federation merchant marine, with a lot of independent commercial groups as well. I've always liked how the FASA Trekverse has a range of specific companies that do everything from building ships and specific components to moving freight and handling exploration. Not all of them are specifically based within the Federation or exclusive to Federation business, but typically the Federation (or at least some of its planets) are important customers.

One of the other important member duties is abiding by Federation standards of trade and specific units of measurements for goods, to ease forms of exchange. Some planets prefer to remain as associates and have less direct influence because their governments are sometimes concerned about compatibility between their systems and those of the Federation, and/or because large scale conflicts like the Romulan War and the Four Years War with the Klingons can be disruptive to their economies. If you lose a fair number of transports during a war, that's a good chunk of economy to rebuild even with help from other members.

The Orion Colonies were very good at playing their larger rivals against each other economically, to the point where they effectively forced both Starfleet and the Klingons to only accept their "benevolently neutral" trade in dilithium during the Four Years War. In some ways, they're a more effective version of the type of enemy that the Ferengi were intended to be. They also offered to "buy" membership in the Federation when it was formed for a "modest" fee, but that didn't work (plus they had the greens as slaves).

 

[publiusr]

Mr. Sternbach has other drawings in storage…like side views of Canopus and Baton Rouge…he might have more of these as well. I hope so.

 

[Ithekro]

Something that large would be practical for mass trade between member homeworlds, and maybe large established colonies. But most places we've seen don't have nearly the population nor likely economic production to warrant such a ship. Unless the superconvoy is doing a large circular route to pass by these systems to drop off some things via transporter or just drop off a pod and let the locals deal with it until the convoy returns to pick it up again.

 

[publiusr]

As replicators get better...convoys drop off.

You can have sublight convoys too.

What I would use Sternbach's tugs for is to pre-position large, pre-filled containers in-transit.

Two systems 10 light-years apart.

I tow 20 containers between them equidistant...drop them off at half light speed.

This means every six months, a load of raw goods gets dropped off, and is sent back.

Thus---once this cosmic train is set in motion...I am functionally sending two loads a year to the other system even though it is 10 ly out...with each container only moving half light speed.

So...even with a cosmic catastrophe that eliminates FTL---you still get two loads per year.

No further warp travel necessary.

Longer distances? Add more pods.

This is best for raw, bulk goods.

Direct warp towing only for perishables...high value goods.

Once this wagon train is established and the Ptolemy takes over...each Muletrain craft is sold off... Trek's Millennium Falcons

 

[mithril]

Yes, from the description, it's a much larger system. Each cargo pod is a kilometer long and a typical convoy has 10-12 linked pods, plus the transports and any escort and support ships needed.

to be honest, i'm having trouble seeing how that would be technically possible given the post TOS depictions of warp technology. attempting to extend a warp field across 10 kilometers worth of containers just doesn't seem possible, when we see ships have difficulty in projecting their fields at all. (not to mention that if this sort of thing was commonplace, it wouldn't have taken Q's comment to inspire Geordi to try projected fields to move that asteroid in Deja Q, and seting up such a large projected field wouldn't have needed as much work to do)

i prefer the smaller pod sizes seen with the Ptolemy class, even if it means you need to have more pods to move the same goods. but i suspect that trade is not usualyl in bulky items.. with a lot of food being produced through synthesizers, and a lot of the physical goods being producible through similar means (even if not to the same level of ease as you'd get later with replicators) i'd imagine that most of the goods being moved around via cargo pods are specialty items or luxuries that can't be easily synthesized. so you don;t really need a thousand kilometers of massive cargo pods to sustain each world, just a stream of smaller pods moved by freighters* or tugs bringing in anythign the world can't make locally.

*and the freighters don;t need to be big. you could get by with a crew module, deflector, and drive module all connected by a extendable framework. dock the pod inside the framework, and you have a full blown ship. like the star fleet battle freighters, be they single pod, double pod, triple pod, and quadruple pod sizes. honestly i rather liked the way they exploited the standardized pod set up to do things like quick-build starbases.

 

[publiusr]

Well, we don’t see the whole drawing.

between the massive containers, there may be rings or nacelle mounts that are interchangeable.

I have seen locomotives in the middle of long trains.

Now, this would all be very hazardous…maybe very low warp to place these massive containers in a line as I suggested just to have a slower than light bulk train.

The Ptolemy types are faster of course.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If it's civilian cargo shipping or something like a long convoy, I expect Warp Rings to dominate.

In the civilian world, "Warp Rings" are more fuel efficient and agility for manueverability isn't high priority like what StarFleet would need for "Combat Reasons".

"Given that Coleopteric or Warp Rings are on average, 17% more Energy Consumption Efficient than Twin/Multi Warp Nacelle designs."

That would be a HUGE deal for business.

And where manueverability / combat is a tertiary priority, Warp Rings would be the dominant form of civilian FTL business travel for traditional Warp Drives IMO.

 

[Unicron]

to be honest, i'm having trouble seeing how that would be technically possible given the post TOS depictions of warp technology. attempting to extend a warp field across 10 kilometers worth of containers just doesn't seem possible, when we see ships have difficulty in projecting their fields at all. (not to mention that if this sort of thing was commonplace, it wouldn't have taken Q's comment to inspire Geordi to try projected fields to move that asteroid in Deja Q, and seting up such a large projected field wouldn't have needed as much work to do)

i prefer the smaller pod sizes seen with the Ptolemy class, even if it means you need to have more pods to move the same goods. but i suspect that trade is not usualyl in bulky items.. with a lot of food being produced through synthesizers, and a lot of the physical goods being producible through similar means (even if not to the same level of ease as you'd get later with replicators) i'd imagine that most of the goods being moved around via cargo pods are specialty items or luxuries that can't be easily synthesized. so you don;t really need a thousand kilometers of massive cargo pods to sustain each world, just a stream of smaller pods moved by freighters* or tugs bringing in anythign the world can't make locally.

*and the freighters don;t need to be big. you could get by with a crew module, deflector, and drive module all connected by a extendable framework. dock the pod inside the framework, and you have a full blown ship. like the star fleet battle freighters, be they single pod, double pod, triple pod, and quadruple pod sizes. honestly i rather liked the way they exploited the standardized pod set up to do things like quick-build starbases.

I agree that, to some extent, the smaller pods used by designs like the Ptolemy are more practical in many ways. I've recently been looking at some of my starship library, and the FJ Tech Manual suggests a Ptolemy wouldn't normally tow more than two containers at a time, due to the warp field, although some of the Excelsior family tugs in the Jackill references have twin connectors, suggesting maybe at least four containers.

Trek has been kind of weird about that sort of thing, though. In TNG's "The Naked Now" it's openly stated that the tractor beam seemingly doesn't have a "push" function for repelling a target, and that it would supposedly take weeks of new circuitry to create that function. But you'd think it would be basic tractor design, and Wesley does it in minutes anyway while intoxicated. Plot!

 

[blssdwlf]

Trek has been kind of weird about that sort of thing, though. In TNG's "The Naked Now" it's openly stated that the tractor beam seemingly doesn't have a "push" function for repelling a target, and that it would supposedly take weeks of new circuitry to create that function. But you'd think it would be basic tractor design, and Wesley does it in minutes anyway while intoxicated. Plot!

Yeah, in "Who Mourns for Adonais" we know TOS didn't have that problem.

KIRK: Mister Sulu. Our forward tractor beams, adjust to repel.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir. Standing by.
KIRK: Activate.
SULU: Ineffective, Captain. There doesn't seem to be anything to push against.​