In moratorium
- Thread starter The Knappos
- Start date
I enjoy ST 09 and The Voyage Home.I love time travel episodes.
All Good Things… and Year of Hell are my two favorite Star Trek episodes ever.
And I never want to see another time travel episode again. I certainly don't see it as potentially the "greatest thing ever" in Trek history.
Two things can be true at the same time.
I couldn't disagree less here.
So what?
Quoting something out of context doesn't constitute an argument.
Read Meyer's description of his reactions in a meeting with the studio people who cut his budget for Star Trek 6. He did not embrace that opportunity to "thrive."
He made arguably the best Trek movie going. I’d say that’s thriving.
Not liking the restrictions yet thriving anyway is not the contradiction you appear to think it is.
I agree there’s no real argument there. TUC is the best.
It's not really much of a movie.
Personally, I love time travel stories. "Time travel" is probably my favourite genre of fiction, and Star Trek without time travel to me would be like Star Trek without Starfleet. Travel to the past, alternate timelines, save the future... keep them coming!It doesn't even really bother me that much if the time travel logic doesn't always hold up, and in fact nitpicking the logic can be fun in itself!
So I can never see myself being onboard with all of you who want to ban time travel, sorry.
Thank you. I'm always baffled when people object to more time-travel on STAR TREK.
From where I'm sitting, time-travel stories have a pretty impressive track record in STAR TREK history: "City on the Edge of Forever," "Tomorrow is Yesterday," "Assignment: Eternity," "All Our Yesterdays," the whale movie, "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Tapestry," FIRST CONTACT, "Little Green Men," "Past Tense," "Future's End," "Relativity," etc.
Some of my favorite eps and movies, actually.
Slightly modifying a line from "The Trouble with Tribbles":
KIRK: "Too much of anything, Lieutenant, even time travel stories in the Star Trek franchise, isn't necessarily a good thing."
...of course, the DS9 crossover with the episode referenced above is one of the few exceptions.
KIRK: "Too much of anything, Lieutenant, even time travel stories in the Star Trek franchise, isn't necessarily a good thing."
...of course, the DS9 crossover with the episode referenced above is one of the few exceptions.
"Captain's log: Stardate 1234.5: We just landed on a planet that looks just like Earth and/or its inhabitants somehow either have similar development, or stumbled on something one of our other ships left behind and they mimicked it."
"Hiya, I'm the evil captain of the week!" TOS did that enough times and it became quite the wishing well to wallow unwaveringly since.
"Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! " The first time in "Contagion" felt like a genuine concern. Natually, everyone loved it so it gets reused and the scripts almost write themselves! Of course, later attempts made the law of diminishing returns that much more obvious. Later after that, we get immutable proof that "Flanderization" isn't just about the inevitable result of characters, it works just as well for plot events or developments. Indeed, even "The Pegasus" brings up the risk of shippy-go-boom-boom for the big-D as it had for itty bitty-P but, right on cue, it doesn't. And yet, that was one of the better times TNG went back to the plot pointypoo of the warp core breach. Now if only they'd put in actually engaging incidental music, but I digress...
"The same goes for holodecks and transporters. Once or twice is one thing, but one has to roll with the situation without thinking of how Starfleet put out such a **** design that the senior-level engineers on board have no clue how to fix and nobody wants Wesley around, but I'm trying not to go down that bunny hole..."
"It's the old 'Make enemy seem stronger than the strongest person on the ship' trope. This also became flanderized. See WORF."
"On a similar vein, any writer building up a character by dumbing down the rest -- this wasn't sophisticated scripting in 1987 (see WESLEY CRUSHER), and with producers in the 21st century claiming modern audiences are more sophisticated therefore the scripts are as well, that's sometimes very difficult to believe. Would you believe, not all producers have said that? (Well, one did but that was for a different show, which hasn't been better on any regular level but there I go digressing again and down the bunny hole.) "
Time Travel hasn't been overused, and Year of Hell I wish was a three-parter or longer but that's too risky and DS9 was already doing all the risky stuff but ratings were dropping so they wanted VOY to be the nostalgia bed to lay on but I digress, but the least-effective VOY TT episode one where they went back to 1996 Earth to play with Sarah Silverman was so ridiculously contrived and, oops, the ship was put back into the delta quadrant at the end of the story anyway... it's up there with the orb of time that also catapults Federation craft halfway across space to right where the plot perfectly presents itself. Maybe Darvin sabotaged the orb. Just how much more of this space junk is out there in convenient glowing-box form?
Last but not least, please - oh, please and a thousand times with sugar on top and pinky swear - don't have Kirk or Riker or whomever boinking everyone they meet every other single week, esp. Kirk and how often he dined and ditched (where's Shahna in a spaceship seeking revenge in the alternate Star Trek II we never got?) , unless they introduce and then promptly overuse the concept of "Space STDs". It's a golden opportunity after everything else golden is done, what with superbugs due to everyone Kirking it up so constantly... if nothing else for this overused trope, at least Riker almost got the ship and the whole of Starfleet compromised and then the plot trope was never again used... partly because Wesley had to save the day, again...
Of course, used sparingly and with a new twist, that's also why all these well-trodden tropes became popular to begin with. A new idea may not always work and be returned to, but a good one can get refined as well as reused.
"Hiya, I'm the evil captain of the week!" TOS did that enough times and it became quite the wishing well to wallow unwaveringly since.
"Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! Warp core breach! " The first time in "Contagion" felt like a genuine concern. Natually, everyone loved it so it gets reused and the scripts almost write themselves! Of course, later attempts made the law of diminishing returns that much more obvious. Later after that, we get immutable proof that "Flanderization" isn't just about the inevitable result of characters, it works just as well for plot events or developments. Indeed, even "The Pegasus" brings up the risk of shippy-go-boom-boom for the big-D as it had for itty bitty-P but, right on cue, it doesn't. And yet, that was one of the better times TNG went back to the plot pointypoo of the warp core breach. Now if only they'd put in actually engaging incidental music, but I digress...
"The same goes for holodecks and transporters. Once or twice is one thing, but one has to roll with the situation without thinking of how Starfleet put out such a **** design that the senior-level engineers on board have no clue how to fix and nobody wants Wesley around, but I'm trying not to go down that bunny hole..."
"It's the old 'Make enemy seem stronger than the strongest person on the ship' trope. This also became flanderized. See WORF."
"On a similar vein, any writer building up a character by dumbing down the rest -- this wasn't sophisticated scripting in 1987 (see WESLEY CRUSHER), and with producers in the 21st century claiming modern audiences are more sophisticated therefore the scripts are as well, that's sometimes very difficult to believe. Would you believe, not all producers have said that? (Well, one did but that was for a different show, which hasn't been better on any regular level but there I go digressing again and down the bunny hole.) "
Time Travel hasn't been overused, and Year of Hell I wish was a three-parter or longer but that's too risky and DS9 was already doing all the risky stuff but ratings were dropping so they wanted VOY to be the nostalgia bed to lay on but I digress, but the least-effective VOY TT episode one where they went back to 1996 Earth to play with Sarah Silverman was so ridiculously contrived and, oops, the ship was put back into the delta quadrant at the end of the story anyway... it's up there with the orb of time that also catapults Federation craft halfway across space to right where the plot perfectly presents itself. Maybe Darvin sabotaged the orb. Just how much more of this space junk is out there in convenient glowing-box form?
Last but not least, please - oh, please and a thousand times with sugar on top and pinky swear - don't have Kirk or Riker or whomever boinking everyone they meet every other single week, esp. Kirk and how often he dined and ditched (where's Shahna in a spaceship seeking revenge in the alternate Star Trek II we never got?) , unless they introduce and then promptly overuse the concept of "Space STDs". It's a golden opportunity after everything else golden is done, what with superbugs due to everyone Kirking it up so constantly... if nothing else for this overused trope, at least Riker almost got the ship and the whole of Starfleet compromised and then the plot trope was never again used... partly because Wesley had to save the day, again...
Of course, used sparingly and with a new twist, that's also why all these well-trodden tropes became popular to begin with. A new idea may not always work and be returned to, but a good one can get refined as well as reused.
I don't know. Why single out time-travel as opposed to spaceships, aliens, androids, space battles, interplanetary politics, thinly-disguised topical allegories, and other STAR TREK staples? It's like saying "no more werewolves!" in a series that's also packed with vampires, witches, ghosts, and zombies. Or "no more double agents!" in a spy thriller. It kinda comes with the territory.
Time-travel has been a constant in STAR TREK for as long as I can remember. It's not a departure; it's been built into the format since "The Naked Time" at least.
I think it took on a life of its own. Decker and Garth were mentally ill. Tracey is the only one that was "evil", though he probably suffered from a mental breakdown as well. So, maybe three? Should we count Merrick? He wasn't Starfleet.
Anyone else?
I think that Tracey lost his mind when his crew died. He went evil while Decker went nuts. What was Starfleet doing with their people’s mental health?
For me, I'm sick to death of:
- Section 31.
- The Borg in any form.
- Klingons in general. (I'd be good with more intelligent, duplicitous, TOS style Klingons, but the TNG style headbutting space Vikings, no. They're beyond played out.)
- Spock losing control of his emotions. (There's no more water in that well. Just no more.)
- Spock having unknown relatives. (Sybok and Michael Burnham were both mistakes, IMO.)
- The 24th/Early 25th Century and the TNG aesthetic in general (Okudagrams are great, but we've been seeing them for 30+ years now. Do something else to convey future technology)
- Fan service without purpose beyond fan service (i.e. PIC season 3).
Sending them to penal colonies and looking for cures.
I watched Dagger of the Mind night.
I'm so conflicted about this....
Part of me says yes.....
But a show said during.... let's say 2305 and 2315. The new relationships being forged between the UFP and the Klingons, the Tomed incident which caused a rift between the Romulans and the UFP, a new age of exploration....
And I wouldn't mind a show set on the E-G. I know some fans hate it, some fans love it, some don't really care. But I like the characters.
But I also see your point. I am very grateful for SNW because it reminds me of the Star Trek I love most, but I also wouldn't mind a show set in the 27th century. Or a show set on, for example, Earth and the Solar system ten years after First Contact. Or something set 25 years after the UFP was founded. There is so much left to explore.
Time travel stories in film and TV have a long, poor history of either going the rinse and repeat route (often using time as the lone point of a story), or employing the kind of technobabble-d hijinks (e.g., "we can't change the past!" / "we have to restore the past!", etc.) from the Back to the Future movies. Others use the time gimmick just to bolster yet another appearance from a then-worn villain (see: First Contact), rather than time being a mere vehicle of an exploration what characters are dealing with, which one would assume is a great, emotional burden with all they are risking,instead of exclusively focusing the time travel side of the plot, as seen in (for just three examples) "Tomorrow is Yesterday", "The City on the Edge of Forever" or "Yesteryear"".
I find it odd that one of the best movie time travel films--Meyer's Time After Time (1979) has around 80% of its story centered on the devolution and consequences of the relationship between H.G. Wells and John Leslie Stevenson (aka Jack the Ripper). That's the heart and drive of the story, not time travel or the plot having to do with having any measurable risk to time at all. The novel concept of Time After Time was the idea of Wells actually building a working time machine, but that was the extent of time being used as anything other than a vehicle, but not the road that the characters needed to travel on. I've rarely seen any film (or TV episode) handle time travel's use / involvement so well, as too many producers/writers seem compelled to dip into the same well over and over again, without a shred of an original take on the subject.
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