Spoilers The Bastardization of Star Trek

[fireproof78]

True. Longer running franchises like ST or DOCTOR WHO run the risk of appearing daunting to watch. Even more recent ones like STARGATE. ('Recent' as in about 30 years old or less.) SUPERNATURAL can appear very daunting... with 327 episodes, that single show had almost as many episodes as the entire STARGATE franchise.

It doesn't help that people tend to not focus on anything longer than 20 or 30 episodes. I suppose that's also part of the reason for shorter seasons... to compensate for the shorter attention span.

That and trying to keep people around. If you do shorter seasons it can be easier for someone to jump in to it, rather than this whole back catalogue. Heck, with the new Ahsoka Star Wars series coming up I realize I didn't really watch a lot of the other shows (like Clone Wars, Rebels) and people are like "What do I need to watch to get ready?"

And I'm like, well, nuts. That sounds like homework, My time is limited. How do I put this little bit of a show here, and there, and watch it and try to keep up with something new.

I know it's vogue to blame short attention spans, and the upswing in "short" content, but honestly sometimes the dearth of material is just too much.

 

[Farscape One]

That and trying to keep people around. If you do shorter seasons it can be easier for someone to jump in to it, rather than this whole back catalogue. Heck, with the new Ahsoka Star Wars series coming up I realize I didn't really watch a lot of the other shows (like Clone Wars, Rebels) and people are like "What do I need to watch to get ready?"

And I'm like, well, nuts. That sounds like homework, My time is limited. How do I put this little bit of a show here, and there, and watch it and try to keep up with something new.

I know it's vogue to blame short attention spans, and the upswing in "short" content, but honestly sometimes the dearth of material is just too much.

STAR WARS and MARVEL are terrible examples in that it does feel like homework instead of it being fun. Disney has made it where you HAVE to watch ALL of the previous stuff.

With STAR TREK, you don't necessarily need to watch it all. Even in the current streaming era. It's not completely joined at the hip. You can jump into whatever show works for you. DOCTOR WHO is similar that way... if you don't like a particular Doctor, just go to one of the others.

STAR TREK shows are connected, but not slavishly so like MARVEL or STAR WARS is. (Despite the infinite discussions about canon.)

 

[fireproof78]

STAR WARS and MARVEL are terrible examples in that it does feel like homework instead of it being fun. Disney has made it where you HAVE to watch ALL of the previous stuff.

With STAR TREK, you don't necessarily need to watch it all. Even in the current streaming era. It's not completely joined at the hip. You can jump into whatever show works for you. DOCTOR WHO is similar that way... if you don't like a particular Doctor, just go to one of the others.

STAR TREK shows are connected, but not slavishly so like MARVEL or STAR WARS is. (Despite the infinite discussions about canon.)

I mean, true but that was the case with TNG forward too. "Did you watch this? Hey, read this! Here's the tech manual." And I'm like...no thanks.

Doctor Who is the same way. I just can't with a lot of it, even if it is not so heavily connected together. Or to use a different example "The Witcher." It's not enough to watch the show, but read the books, play the video games and determine what is right.

The older I get the less it appeals.

 

[Finn]

Although, as a matter of perspective, many of us remember when TOS was 100% of STAR TREK and we watched those same 79 episodes over and over and over the whole time we were growing up, so, emotionally at least, they carry a lot more weight than the math might suggest -- at least if you don't factor in that TOS was STAR TREK for more than two decades, from 1966 to 1987.

(Okay, there was also TAS, but that was just an offshoot of TOS.)

There are fans who didn't count the movies and considered the movies as contrary to TOS.

 

[Farscape One]

The older I get the less it appeals.

I can understand that. I'm a completionist, so that's baked into who I am. But there are only so many hours in a day. It can certainly be off-putting to have hundreds of episodes to go through.

 

[Citiprime]

The flip side is that there is a huge amount of material to move through. I recall (and really still am) being put off by the amount of comic books around Batman and trying to catch up felt impossible. Star Trek, when it was just TOS and TNG, was easier to grasp. I could catch an episode, record it on VHS (yes indeed), watch it and talk about it with friends at school the next day or two.

Then more and more scifi shows showed up. I tried Babylon 5 but found it strange. I went to try out Voyager and was excited for it. But then Stargate SG-1 came along, as well as several other SCI-FI channel shows. And that ended up leaving VOY behind, and DS9 and ENT because they didn't feel as interesting as the others (and I only had so much VHS tapes).

Eventually it becomes daunting to try and go back. And if I who enjoy the material but decided other things were interesting can feel a bit lost at times, how much more so for the casual person who goes "Which one has Dr. Spock in it?"

A show that comes to mind is Farscape.

I remember loving it. There seemed to be a loyal fan following for it online during its run. And the show has some very very good moments and episodes that I remember thinking were great. But nowadays it's a show that seems to never be mentioned or come up in online conversations. It's like a forgotten cult series from the 90s at this point, even though I remember it being talked about in the same breath as Stargate and Babylon 5.

 

[Farscape One]

A show that comes to mind is Farscape.

I remember loving it. There seemed to be a loyal fan following for it online during its run. And the show has some very very good moments and episodes that I remember thinking were great. But nowadays it's a show that seems to never be mentioned or come up in online conversations. It's like a forgotten cult series from the 90s at this point, even though I remember it being talked about in the same breath as Stargate and Babylon 5.

FARSCAPE is NEVER forgotten in my household...

 

[fireproof78]

A show that comes to mind is Farscape.

I remember loving it. There seemed to be a loyal fan following for it online during its run. And the show has some very very good moments and episodes that I remember thinking were great. But nowadays it's a show that seems to never be mentioned or come up in online conversations. It's like a forgotten cult series from the 90s at this point, even though I remember it being talked about in the same breath as Stargate and Babylon 5.

Again, you have to be more deliberate in finding the conversations but it's still talked about, just in smaller ways. I remember watching Gigi on her Twitch stream during the pandemic as she reviewed and talked about Farscape. Ton of fun and very much a positive experience. But, probably not well know.

 

[Greg Cox]

A show that comes to mind is Farscape.

I remember loving it. There seemed to be a loyal fan following for it online during its run. And the show has some very very good moments and episodes that I remember thinking were great. But nowadays it's a show that seems to never be mentioned or come up in online conversations. It's like a forgotten cult series from the 90s at this point, even though I remember it being talked about in the same breath as Stargate and Babylon 5.

For what it's worth, I emceed a FARSCAPE reunion convention back in November 2019, right before the pandemic, and was impressed by just how devoted and passionate a fan base that show still has.

(Full disclosure: I coedited the FS novels back in the day, and also wrote for the official FS magazine.)

 

[Farscape One]

For what it's worth, I emceed a FARSCAPE reunion convention back in November 2019, right before the pandemic, and was impressed by just how devoted and passionate a fan base that show still has.

(Full disclosure: I coedited the FS novels back in the day, and also wrote for the official FS magazine.)

It's a wonderful universe to be devoted and passionate about. Damned near perfect series, FARSCAPE.

 

[Tuskin38]

Disney has made it where you HAVE to watch ALL of the previous stuff.

Not always.

 

[Farscape One]

Not always.

Perhaps. But it certainly feels that way.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

STAR WARS and MARVEL are terrible examples in that it does feel like homework instead of it being fun. Disney has made it where you HAVE to watch ALL of the previous stuff.

With STAR TREK, you don't necessarily need to watch it all. Even in the current streaming era. It's not completely joined at the hip. You can jump into whatever show works for you. DOCTOR WHO is similar that way... if you don't like a particular Doctor, just go to one of the others.

STAR TREK shows are connected, but not slavishly so like MARVEL or STAR WARS is. (Despite the infinite discussions about canon.)

That's audiences pushing that idea, not the shows/movies (not that Disney necessarily minds as long as they think it makes them money).

Plenty of people only watch the Marvel stuff they want to watch and get by just fine.

I'm not going to be watching Ahsoka right away since I just had D+ for Secret Invasion and I've moved on to another service for the moment, but I'll definitely be watching and I have no fear whatsoever about jumping in based solely on what I've seen of the character in The Mandalorian, which she's spinning off of. I'll not be doing any 'homework' of old cartoons and I highly doubt I'll be at all lost unless the show is just bad, which is always a risk anyway. Good stories don't need homework. They're entertaining even if you don't know every reference and piece of backstory.

 

[Commander Troi]

Decided against Scotch and instead went with one of my favourite Bourbons.

My fave too! I wonder if a glass of that will help my head cold...

 

[HotRod]

My fave too! I wonder if a glass of that will help my head cold...

There isn't much that isn't helped by a good belt of Whisky/Whiskey.

 

[wayoung]

There isn't much that isn't helped by a good belt of Whisky/Whiskey.

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[Richard S. Ta]

Perhaps. But it certainly feels that way.

I think there are degrees. For Picard, it is that way. My wife is a huge sci-fi fan and I know there's no way I could get her to sit through a single season of Picard without a 5-10 episode TNG primer to explain what everything is. But then, SNW is much more of a 'hop in' kind of show.

I think for Marvel, or Doctor Who, it helps to have seen everything, but it's usually not necessary. Star Trek does have a tendency to lean into its' own mythology way too hard sometimes.

 

[Francis Tonay]

A few points to go over before I begin. This represents my opinion which is no more or less valid than anyone else's. While the title appears inflammatory it conveys thoughts made before I decided to make this post and is not intended to provoke anyone. I'm more than happy and willing to entertain opinions that differ from my own. Finally there is no way to accurately describe my position without giving away spoilers regarding Picard and the latest S02E09 episode of Strange New Worlds (SNW).

I was a 90's kid. I grew up watching TNG and Voyager with a bit of DS9. I still like to rewatch TNG and became excited when new Star Trek series started to come out, ESPECIALLY when the OG Picard came back. The nostalgic elation I felt was only matched by the supreme crash back down to Earth as I watched what I perceived to be the bastardization of the Star Trek canaan, mostly with Picard and SNW.

Picard

When they landed in 21st century Earth you could see the trashed streets and I immediately went, "here we go." Sure enough the "we're trashing our planet" speeches came quick. I'll be the first to defend Star Trek exploring certain viewpoints. TNG was way ahead of it's time addressing things like a maternal society, an androgynous species, and one of my favorite episodes, "Measure of a Man" where they fight for Data to have rights as a sentient being. My problem is in how they did it. Guinan came into the picture and for whatever reason they wrote the episode as if they hadn't met yet. I'm not nitpicking some little detail - not only was it a two part episode but it was a season finale where they went back to the 18th century and met Guinan. In that episode, as in the "future" (TNG) Guinan was eloquent and poised, armed with centuries of experience and wisdom. All of a sudden they have her on a soap box yelling what some call liberal viewpoints (I'm as politically center as it gets). The cringe I felt was pretty epic. I think that's the only point that could inflame some political bias, but my points go far beyond politics.

I'm seeing how long this is getting so I'm going to try and be brief. Q, and the Borg. In one episode they absolutely obliterated two of the best protagonists in the entire canaan. Q was dying and he turned out he just wanted a friend?! The Borg all of a sudden becomes benevolent? Are you f*ing kidding me? Not only is this bad writing, but it completely betrays the history AND the potential for those protagonists. I suppose the Borg can always go bad again, but there's no coming back from Q literally crying on Picard's shoulder.

The series finale of Picard wasn't any better. This is less "bastardization" and more just lazy writing, but it still irritates me. TV shows use clever plot twists and reveals to get the viewer into that, "oooooh, man" feeling, but it seemed like all they did with Picard was just exploit viewer nostalgia for TNG. It was as if every single plot twist or reveal was just them revealing the return of some OG TNG character.

Strange New Worlds

Again, trying to wrap this up. SNW has had a hell of a lot of potential and for the most part I've really enjoyed it. Last season there was an episode where the crew reenacted the plot for a children's book. It was a bit out there, but the reasoning they used was at least plausible for the show. This last episode nine almost caused me to throw my laptop through a window. It wasn't even stretchably plausible in any way. The only thing that made less sense was their solution to sing a long. The whole thing was so cringy I had to skip over the singing which means the episode for me was about seven minutes long.




I'm not against a show departing from it's original path, but it at least has to make sense. It at least has to be written well. When you're making episodes for a series as iconic as Star Trek, you need to know what the f* you're doing. Does anyone consider me to be off base here? Am I the only one that's watched this unfold and thought, "what the hell are they doing?"

"When did Star Trek become WOKE!?!?"
Since The Cage.
Try Harder.

 

[MadDokK]

I picked a hell of a thread to read while trying to quit sniffing glue.

The problem with "lol" is the acronym is now mostly used to express amusement instead of an actual "I laughed out loud" statement. FRLOL [for real laugh out loud] has been my response to this post.

I can't even understand what the issue is here. The complaints raised, as I understand them, are:
- Guinan didn't remember Picard (alternate timeline; Time's Arrow hadn't happened)
You're not the first to say this. How is this a different timeline? Picard is supposed to take place 29 years after TNG. I don't doubt you're right, I'd like to know what I missed.
- Speeches about messing up the planet (hardly new in Trek)
My issue is with Guinan making the soap box speech which is so far out of her character it was wholly unbelievable. Even under the most flustering of circumstances Guinan never came anywhere near that level.
- Borg and Q "betrayed" (Borg were already largely neutered in Voyager, and it turned out this was only a subsection of Borg; Q has been around for 36 years and the actor is in his mid-70s, what "potential" was left?)
He can appear in whatever form he wants. They had to pick a different actor for Guinan for obvious reasons. He could've even "stole" Wil Wheaton's image.
- Picard S3 was a nostalgia trip (no shit, that was the whole point of the season - I felt it detracted from it, but plenty of others loved it)

- SNW has had two implausible stories (even if you only watched TNG you saw the likes of Genesis and Rascals - which have rubbish science, and in the case of the latter rubbish in many other aspects IMHO - so I don't see why these provoke such concern).
I say again - I stepped in shit with this assertion.

It's fine to not like any part of Trek - each series has its flaws - but I will never get the "not my Trek" angle.

I haven't read the whole thread, but.... in reference to Guinan, in TNG "Time's Arrow" they actually traveled back to the 19th century, not the 18th. It was the lifetime of Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain).
Thank you for the correction.
So why doesn't 21st century Guinan remember Picard in Picard S2? Showrunner Terry Matalas addressed this directly:

(Source: Inverse)

So the whole thing with Devidia II and traveling back in time to 19th century San Francisco simply did not happen in this timeline, where Earth is this conquering Confederation instead of part of a cooperative United Federation of Planets. Therefore, 24th-century Picard never met 19th-century Guinan. And guess what, if Picard in this timeline had gone back in time to the 19th century, then it would have been the bloodthirsty, conquering, xenophobic Picard of the Confederation of Earth, not our mild-mannered and noble Picard. What kind of havoc would he have wrought on 19th-century earth? And if Guinan had run into that guy back then, then she probably would sic'ed Luna on Picard immediately or blasted him with that shotgun the instant he showed up at her bar in the 21st century.

Kor

I asked this above, though am curious with your response, too. How is this a different timeline?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, trolls.

*kisses

 

[F. King Daniel]

The other explanation for all the weirdness in Picard season 2 is that Q makes all of it possible, the same way he broke the laws of the universe in TNG's "Deja Q" and "Q Pid," and reality is being held together artificially by Q not so different from the constructed reality of Robin Hood and Sherwood Forest, since even in its resolution it's all a huge paradox that falls apart if you think about it too hard.

The Borg Queen is from a timeline that never existed but still exists in the Prime Timeline with Jurati and travels aboard a ship from a timeline that never existed to form the new Borg community. But if that timeline was averted, how did they travel from it to save the original timeline? How is Elnor alive in the end?

Answer: Q.

Isn't the showrunner the guy behind the 12 Monkeys series (I've only seen the original movie)? I'm kinda curious what the time travel is like in that and if it makes any more sense