Sorry, it's frustrating. We've had some good discussion it here too but man the spoilers thing gets annoying. I get it, and I respect it and it's annoying.
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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Lt Cmdr Data in Star Trek Nemesis has entered the chat.
I can tolerate that one slightly better than Kirk's.
Not by much but only because I have little care for Data as a character.
Data's death in NEMESIS was terrible. I know Spiner's reasons behind it, but the movie was commercialized as a 'genetation's last stand', or words to that effect. Meaning that was it. Data didn't need to die... he should have been promoted to XO when Riker left.
Hot Take Number One: I think Kirk’s death in Generations is exquisite. The worst, worst farewell the character could’ve gotten would be on the bridge of the Enterprise, guns blazing. That’s never what the character was about. He died in an accident, alone, putting his life on the line to save people he didn’t know. Twice. His last words were understated and intimate. “Oh my…” gives me chills, every time. Shatner’s read on the line, with Kirk seeing the mystery and beauty of what comes next, is beautiful. It also can be interpreted as the surprise of a man who lived every moment to its fullest finally having death arrive…. I love it.
Hot Take Number Two: I really appreciate the understated “Berman” aesthetic. I like the grounded, mellow feel it brought to the series he produced. I like the emphasis on modest character moments. It contrasts starkly with the increasingly Rah Rah Action Jackson comic book nonsense that was shoehorned into Nemesis, the latter seasons of Voyager and some of Enterprise. (He doesn’t get off scot-free. He was responsible for a lot of sexist nonsense both on and off screen).
Hot Take Number Two: I really appreciate the understated “Berman” aesthetic. I like the grounded, mellow feel it brought to the series he produced. I like the emphasis on modest character moments. It contrasts starkly with the increasingly Rah Rah Action Jackson comic book nonsense that was shoehorned into Nemesis, the latter seasons of Voyager and some of Enterprise. (He doesn’t get off scot-free. He was responsible for a lot of sexist nonsense both on and off screen).
it’s a better death than he could have been given, I’ll grant you that. But I’m of the opinion that we never should have found out Kirk’s fate. The last time we should have seen or heard from the character was the log entry at the end of The Undiscovered Country.
maybe he quietly retired to the family farm in Iowa and died peacefully from old age. Maybe he went into politics like Archer and became Federation President. Maybe he bought a one man ship, pointed it towards a distant star and just went off on his own never to be heard from again ala Zeferam Cochran.
I didn't fundamentally hate the idea of Data having a heroic death (other than it being poorly written in the first place).
But it was so damned craven and pathetic to try to push through a heroic death for no reason other than to jack up the drama as part of the 'last stand' only to then also shoehorn in a last second Data replacement body as an excuse for the character to still continue on in future movies if they should ever get made.
Thanks, friend! It’s been giving me hell but I’ve been giving it hell too. Just hoping they hurry up with the breakthrough cure.
Data’s death should have been heartbreaking, I’m still trying to figure out why it left me so very cold. I recently rewatched the film and once again I don’t feel the slightest pang of sorrow. It’s just awkward—even the cast’s performances are more awkward than moving. Must be down to the weak writing and execution and the fact it blatantly and shamelessly tries to repackage the climax of TWOK…and just falls so incredibly flat. I’m glad PIC exists for no other reason than to provide a different ending for the characters.
Complaining about Kirk’s death again—I’m still terribly pissed that Picard buries him on a mountaintop on that lifeless planet as though Kirk was some kind of nameless hobo he’d just met through rather than one of the greatest legends in Starfleet history. I mean, surely they could have taken the body and given him a burial he deserves back on Earth.
I'm glad PIC shows they recovered the body but having it sit in some sinister lab isn’t really much better.
My complaints are over for the day
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Kirk's first death was fine. Actually Demora Sulu made it exquisite.
His third death was pretty good too.
Kirk barely shed a tear for SPOCK.
Kirk barely shed a tear for his own son.
Reminder- Any reference to Picard season 3 plot (and SNW Season 2) needs a spoiler tag.
Carry on....
Carry on....
Maybe no tears, but he was so upset he missed his chair!
Such a superb bit of physical acting by Shatner, he really sold that scene.
Maybe no tears, but he was so upset he missed his chair!
It's one of the reasons why I've always felt actor-directors get better performances out of a cast than those who are just directors.
As proof, look at Jonathan Frakes, Avery Brooks, Roxann Dawson, Robert Duncan McNeill, LeVar Burton.
Or on the big screen... Clint Eastwood, Kevin Costner, Ron Howard, Sylvester Stallone, Mel Gibson.
To be fair if I'd just found out someone I was talking to had murdered my family member in cold blood I'd be a blubbering mess.
It's because the production didn't care all that much about Kirk as a character. They wanted to make a TNG movie, but were told by a nervous Paramount who weren't sure TNG would successfully transition to the big screen that it needed to feature a "passing of the baton" from the TOS movies.
Plus I could see them wanting Kirk to die with meaning but no flash. Many if not most pop culture icons in cinematic and small screen fiction die grand deaths. Kirk spent his career avoiding deaths so over-the-top that historians may have had trouble swallowing that it was how such a famous explorer and officer met their end.
Dying under a metal bridge with crushed internal organs may have been their idea for the proper death for James T. Kirk after a lifetime of avoiding massive explosions, angry Klingons, perturbed Romulans, armed Gorn and even mutated Earth space probes who wanted to destroy humanity. Kirk helped save 230 million humanoids who would never know he helped rescue their primitive civilization but also died pinned under a huge chunk of twisted metal with just one other person - someone he didn't even know until that very day - to witness his passing.
Dying under a metal bridge with crushed internal organs may have been their idea for the proper death for James T. Kirk after a lifetime of avoiding massive explosions, angry Klingons, perturbed Romulans, armed Gorn and even mutated Earth space probes who wanted to destroy humanity. Kirk helped save 230 million humanoids who would never know he helped rescue their primitive civilization but also died pinned under a huge chunk of twisted metal with just one other person - someone he didn't even know until that very day - to witness his passing.
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