the Prime DIrective and the rules for it. how i feel about the whole thing

[Rahul]

We know that Warp Travel doesn't stop bellicose polities from not being bellicose, eg they can get warp and go on a rampage. Klingons and Romulans and many smaller species come to mind. It's not a lithmus that 'this species survived! Yey!', it's 'Well, they can visit you and you can visit them so the gig is up'.

How this works when, say, you might have a pre-warp interstellar civilization (if say, Humans got to Alpha Centauri and have a colony there, or other pre-warp but transtellar species) is unknown. Maybe warp drives act as a sort of cover to 'real space' sensors - you can't see the ship at warp, so pre-warp societies probably wave it off as subspace or gravimetric oddities and hopefully can't trace or track them enough to realize they're a pattern and the PD is just 'don't pop up in front of them'?

The Klingons also seem to violate the prime directive, and Q alone knows how many species both of them, or the Cardassians, Breen, Tholians, whoever, have rolled over - the only limiter being, to them, probably being 'Will the Federation know about it/care enough to make it a crisis'.

But it kind of is. It's like the nuclear bomb. It changes EVERYTHING. Once it's on the table, the entire world must find a way to self-control it's entire civilization to not destroy itself.
It isn't a GUARANTEE - but the chances are so much higher. Just imagine someone giving the Aztec Empire, or Spaniard conquerors nuclear weapons. Modern nation states are far from perfect. But they've developed in tandem with technology enough to "live with" such dangerous technologies.
A warp drive would change the world similar drastically.

As for Klingons, Cardassian etc. breaking the prime directive? That doesn't rule out they still have it. All modern Nations part of UN have promised to not start wars of aggression. And that still happens often enough.
However - these are more the exceptions. We don't live in a colonial world anymore. And the Klingons are conquerors. But they don't conquer always, and everything.

 

[Shawnster]

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet regulation. OK, fine. Can civilians do whatever they want? The Federation does not have legal jurisdiction outside of Federation territory, so is there anything to regulate or keep in check civilians who journey outside of Federation space and arrive at a pre-warp civilization?

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet regulation. OK, fine. What stops other civilizations from interfering with a pre-warp civilization? As noted above, the Klingons don't care about such regulations, and I doubt the Romulans do. There are also species like the Ferengi or the Orions that could see potential profit in such interference.

 

[at Quark's]

Something must had happened, either after Kirk but before Picard in TNG, to make the PD more strict, or at least, that Picard and his crew hold a stricter application of it. Which would be amazing to see on its own.

I think the Prime Directive is frequently being refined and modified, much like for example privacy laws or environmental regulations these days. (Though the main clause probably isn't that subject to change). By the time of Janeway, apparently there are 47 suborders to it- I imagine it wasn't drafted that way when they first came up with it somewhere between Archer and Kirk.

How do they refine it? I suppose they look at incidents happening to civilians for 'ínspiration' (after all, they are not bound to it), or to extra-Federation species such as the Klingon, or even to incidents happening in Starfleet showing that there are still cases not properly covered by it.

As for warp being the threshold, I think that's merely the rule of thumb, the nominally latest point when contact can be avoided. (Theoretically even after the invention of warp drive, if a civilization isn't curious about going out into the universe at all). I suppose that the PD also doesn't hold for pre-warp species that manages to cross interstellar distances and stumbles upon, say, a Federation colony there.

But it must be a lot more complicated than we think. For example, in Justice it doesn't look like the world they just discovered (according to the episode itself) and visited has anything even remotely approaching the level of warp technology or even primitive space faring technology, yet apparently the Prime Directive is no issue there.

 

[UssGlenn]

But it must be a lot more complicated than we think. For example, in Justice it doesn't look like the world they just discovered (according to the episode itself) and visited has anything even remotely approaching the level of warp technology or even primitive space faring technology, yet apparently the Prime Directive is no issue there

I think its pretty clear that those people learned of the existence of aliens somehow long ago. Probably visted by a culture without a prime directive equivalent. So while non interference still applies, no contact does not.

 

[at Quark's]

I think its pretty clear that those people learned of the existence of aliens somehow long ago. Probably visted by a culture without a prime directive equivalent. So while non interference still applies, no contact does not.

That's a possibility, yes, and it is supported by the fact that they don't seemed shocked at all about their visit, but one problem remains: how did they find out before 'officially' contacting them?

The episode establishes that the TNG crew is 'exhausted' from establishing that colony, and that they only just discovered the planet, so they can't really have done a lengthy undercover survey mission before making themselves known as aliens- a brief one at best. So that must mean that either there are clear signs of alien visits on the planet and they must have asked about them, or that the topic of aliens and/ or outer space is a topic of discussion coming up frequently, without them prompting, in the first place.

I mean - you don't know much about these aliens when you beam down for the first time, you don't know how they will respond to potentially shattering their world view, and you don't want to raise suspicion, so you're not going to ask on your second day there (without clear indication it's 'safe' to do so) 'Were you ever visited by beings coming from other worlds, from the stars? And how would you respond to some of them visiting you tomorrow? Just asking to pass the time, this question has no ulterior motive.'

 

[Imaus]

I think the Prime Directive is frequently being refined and modified, much like for example privacy laws or environmental regulations these days. (Though the main clause probably isn't that subject to change). By the time of Janeway, apparently there are 47 suborders to it- I imagine it wasn't drafted that way when they first came up with it somewhere between Archer and Kirk.

How do they refine it? I suppose they look at incidents happening to civilians for 'ínspiration' (after all, they are not bound to it), or to extra-Federation species such as the Klingon, or even to incidents happening in Starfleet showing that there are still cases not properly covered by it.

As for warp being the threshold, I think that's merely the rule of thumb, the nominally latest point when contact can be avoided. (Theoretically even after the invention of warp drive, if a civilization isn't curious about going out into the universe at all). I suppose that the PD also doesn't hold for pre-warp species that manages to cross interstellar distances and stumbles upon, say, a Federation colony there.

But it must be a lot more complicated than we think. For example, in Justice it doesn't look like the world they just discovered (according to the episode itself) and visited has anything even remotely approaching the level of warp technology or even primitive space faring technology, yet apparently the Prime Directive is no issue there.

Justice is very weird, the Federation is wayyy too chalant about trepassing on Edo, a world they basically just found, but hey. Picard managed to wrangle a system out of the Edo's 'god' IIRC

 

[The Wormhole]

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet regulation. OK, fine. Can civilians do whatever they want?

According to TNG Angel One, yes.

The Prime Directive is a Starfleet regulation. OK, fine. What stops other civilizations from interfering with a pre-warp civilization?

Absolutely nothing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Absolutely nothing.

Klingon: Flintlocks. Get yer flintlocks here! Flintlocks!

 

[JesterFace]

Sometimes the Prime Directive feels like Starfleet being lazy.
If you can help, why not help?