[VOY -> DS9] "Nothing Human" in the Alpha Quadrant?

[Ragitsu]

Good evening.

For those of you who are familiar with the Voyager episode "Nothing Human", do you think this script - with sufficient modification - would have worked just as well if not better over on DS9? I assume we would have seen the real Moset instead of a recreation.

 

[Tosk]

Sure, I guess.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Maybe, but part of the quandary (in my opinion) is the distance, both in time and space, from the real Moset's actions.

If it was Moset in the flesh, one would not have the argument that Moset-hologram's knowledge and technique were poisoned by virtue of the real deal's actions in the past.

Plus, Moset would have been recognized by someone earlier in the show, because there'd be more Bajorans around in the Alpha Quadrant.

To summarize, no, I don't think "Nothing Human" would work very well as a DS9 episode.

 

[Ragitsu]

Maybe, but part of the quandary (in my opinion) is the distance, both in time and space, from the real Moset's actions.

If it was Moset in the flesh, one would not have the argument that Moset-hologram's knowledge and technique were poisoned by virtue of the real deal's actions in the past.

Plus, Moset would have been recognized by someone earlier in the show, because there'd be more Bajorans around in the Alpha Quadrant.

To summarize, no, I don't think "Nothing Human" would work very well as a DS9 episode.

Well, the discovery would - as you pointed out - occur much earlier, but...that would then leave more room for the dilemma to be played out to whatever conclusion. The possibility of genuine Cardassian input in the mix (interacting with the Federation and Bajoran perspectives on the matter) would have been interesting.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

The episode questions whether 2nd and 3rd, etc - hand info from horrid experiments and sources should be used for good, no matter how we acquired the knowledge. It questions whether time and space have a way of cleansing ill-gotten data. It's like the ethical version of the legal concept "fruit of the poisonous tree" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree)

Arguing with the hologram of Moset is like arguing with one of his students/protegees...plus it still allows victims to confront him to "his" face, so to speak.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think it should have been even more a Delta Quadrant story, with a DQ alien there in the flesh.

 

[Oddish]

I'd need to see the script, I think.

 

[at Quark's]

With the real Moset, I feel you would lose one of the interesting key conundrums of the episode. Undoubtedly the real Moset was guilty. But can you rightfully dish out the consequences of the real Moset's misdeeds to his hologram that has been programmed with incomplete information, and no actual memory of those horrific experiments (but with part of the real Moset's attitude and knowledge)? (Assuming that that hologram had some degree of actual sentience/sapience, which is doubtful in the first place.)

The central dilemma of whether it is permissible or not to use data, once obtained by immoral experiments for good ends would still be there, of course.

 

[Ragitsu]

I think it should have been even more a Delta Quadrant story, with a DQ alien there in the flesh.

A DQ alien Mengele?

(but with part of the real Moset's attitude and knowledge)? (Assuming that that hologram had some degree of actual sentience/sapience, which is doubtful in the first place.)

Holo!Moset's actions during that final scene confuse me, because it seems strange for the computer (there's that razor-thin line between the ship's computer and a hologram with a real degree of volition) to debate with The Doctor when "he" was designed to be an interactive exobiology database; plus, judging by Holo!Moset's final expression, "he" seemed shocked during the moment of deletion (i.e., the "execution"). It makes sense for the original flesh-and-blood Crell Moset to passionately defend those grisly actions when his back is to the wall, because his ego and sense of self-preservation aren't in question.

 

[at Quark's]

Holo!Moset's actions during that final scene confuse me, because it seems strange for the computer (there's that razor-thin line between the ship's computer and a hologram with a real degree of volition) to debate with The Doctor when "he" was designed to be an interactive exobiology database; plus, judging by Holo!Moset's final expression, "he" seemed shocked during the moment of deletion (i.e., the "execution"). It makes sense for the original flesh-and-blood Crell Moset to passionately defend those grisly actions when his back is to the wall, because his ego and sense of self-preservation aren't in question.

In the end it's the ship's computer arguing against itself using two different programs to do so (like how it's also quite possible to run two different chess programs on the same computer and let them play one another). But I agree that by logic, HoloMoset probably should have cared a bit less about his program being deleted than he seemed to do - (though you can also argue that this is simply a projected computer simulation of how the real Moset probably would behave in that case).

Also, HoloMoset has a point in his final remarks - the doc decided to used his knowledge and skills when he was in need of them, but once the crisis was over, he decided to go the 'moral' route.

 

[Ragitsu]

Also, HoloMoset has a point in his final remarks - the doc decided to used his knowledge and skills when he was in need of them, but once the crisis was over, he decided to go the 'moral' route.

In Starfleet, a CMO can overrule a Captain concerning (emergency?) medical matters, yes? During that heated powwow, could he could have outright refused Janeway's command? If not, well...he was under orders .

 

[at Quark's]

In Starfleet, a CMO can overrule a Captain concerning (emergency?) medical matters, yes? During that heated powwow, could he could have outright refused Janeway's command? If not, well...he was under orders .

Interesting point, it has been some time since I actually saw the episode. Reading back the script it seems it was Janeway's decision indeed.

The EMH has the final say in medical matters. But speaking strictly medically the best approach probably would be to use HoloMoset's skills. The decision to not do so is not a decision based on medical, but on ethical grounds. So it might have followed that the EMH could have enforced his decision to use Holomoset's skills even if Janeway had been against it, but not the other way around. I don't know.

 

[Oddish]

The central dilemma of whether it is permissible or not to use data, once obtained by immoral experiments for good ends would still be there, of

Yes. The EMH made his decision. Effectively, he used Dr. Mengele's research to save the patient who was already in imminent danger... but after the fact, he threw all the research material in a trash can and set it alight.

In Starfleet, a CMO can overrule a Captain concerning (emergency?) medical matters, yes? During that heated powwow, could he could have outright refused Janeway's command? If not, well...he was under orders .

I assume he could have. Possibly, an unmodified EMH who had not achieved a level of sentience would have: citing medical ethics (the right of a patient to refuse to be treated), he would have respected B'Elanna's decision to die from her condition. However, the EMH we had was capable of more abstract judgment.

 

[Ragitsu]

He refused to end Tuvix's existence...

 

[Oddish]

He refused to end Tuvix's existence...

Yes. Primum non nocere (first, do no harm) was probably a core aspect of his program, and not open to interpretation the way the decision to help B'Elanna was.