Spoilers Season 2's Borg battle painting

[Lord Exor]

The Borg *are* selfish in action and deed without the realisation of being so, you are treating the Borg Queen as an entity separate to the Collective, as an individual. The Queen is the beginning, the end… the one who is many. She *is* the Borg.

The Queen is very obviously an individual that is separate from the Collective. In both the Confederation and prime timelines, she remains an individual with the same personality and desires despite having little or no Collective remaining. In "Endgame," she contradicts the Collective's decisions and issues them direct orders.

When Picard calls the Queen out on destroying what remained of the Collective, she justifies it as an individual. She isn't literally a manifestation of the Collective, she's a person. This could not be any more clear.

 

[Timofnine]

The Queen is very obviously an individual that is separate from the Collective. In both the Confederation and prime timelines, she remains an individual with the same personality and desires despite having little or no Collective remaining. In "Endgame," she contradicts the Collective's decisions and issues them direct orders.

When Picard calls the Queen out on destroying what remained of the Collective, she justifies it as an individual. She isn't literally a manifestation of the Collective, she's a person. This could not be any more clear.

I think that modern day Star Trek writers have somewhat misunderstood what the original concept and intention was in creating the Borg Queen (beyond wanting a ‘face’ that could chew scenery with Picard and Data onscreen), and therefore have misrepresented the being in the most recent Star Trek television productions, even in Voyager at times somewhat, but they were known for dumbing the Borg down. I do like sassy Borg Queen from Picard season 2, though being the lone survivor of the Borg, she literally was the entire Collective whittled down to a single form, represented through a single humanoid ‘avatar’ rather than trillions of assimilated bodies and souls.

The Borg Queen is not a singular being that directs the actions of the Collective like a leader. The Queen is an *emergent* manifestation of the Collective consciousness itself, representing through conscious embodiment the trillions of assimilated individuals from thousands of species who are interconnected as one. As the Queen stated herself, she is the beginning, the end and the one who is many… she *is* the Borg.

This massive network of assimilated beings operates as a single distributed intelligence with each individual ‘absorbed’, contributing to the collective knowledge and understanding of the whole. The Borg Collective is not just a sum of its parts which are interchangeable and disposable, but a complex and dynamic entity that is capable of learning and adapting at a rate far beyond that of any individual member, thanks to the processing power of trillions of beings thinking as one.

The Borg Queen serves as a focal point for the Collective, helping to coordinate it’s actions and make decisions that are in the best interest of the greater whole. She is not a leader in the traditional sense, but rather an embodiment of the Collective’s will and intelligence. The Borg Queen is both a product of the Collective and a facilitator of its ongoing evolution and growth… the beginning and the end.

We still did not get a Seven of Nine/Borg Queen face off in Picard season 3, btw. Remember, the Borg left Seven on Voyager for a reason….

 

[Lord Exor]

Only fans have misinterpreted the Borg Queen. She was always intended by Braga and Moore to be an individual.

 

[Timofnine]

No modern writer has misinterpreted the Borg Queen. She was always intended by Braga and Moore to be an individual.

The Borg as a whole collective consciousness *are* an individual just as much as being many, that is the whole point. I present an old earth song to elaborate:

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If Brannon or Ronald want to dispute this, they need to start tweeting.

 

[Lord Exor]

The Borg as a whole collective consciousness *are* an individual just as much as being many, that is the whole point. I present an old earth song to elaborate:

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If Brannon or Ronald want to dispute this, they need to start tweeting.

They said this years ago--there's a link to a chat log on Memory Alpha--and wrote her as an individual in every episode they scribed. I'm sorry if this ruins the Borg for you, but this has always been the case.

 

[fireproof78]

*checks notes on when Borg were ruined.*

No, I'm good...it was long before the Queen.

 

[Timofnine]

They said this years ago--there's a link to a chat log on Memory Alpha--and wrote her as an individual in every episode they scribed. I'm sorry if this ruins the Borg for you, but this has always been the case.

I agree with your statement, though I also believe that what was said has been misunderstood. The Borg Queen *was* written as an individual, but as a personification of the Collective; an embodiment of trillions filtered through one avatar in to the perception of a singular entity. I guess that this is a hard concept to grasp. The writers more and more began writing the Queen as an individual because they quite simply probably could not get their heads around the concept of what the Queen actually was, or at least could not come to an agreement. This eventually led to the Borg Queen becoming more of a two dimensional moustache twirling cartoon villain.

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[Lord Exor]

How could the people that created the Queen not "get" their own character? You're reaching here. They said, verbatim, that they conceived of her as a real person and not an embodiment of the Collective, which comes across in every one of her appearances. She was a "mustache-twirling cartoon villain" from day one.

 

[somebuddyX]

It'll be interesting one day when either Online or a comic book does a Confederation of Earth storyline. One set in TNG times would be interesting if they did counterparts to the E-D crew and what designs an artist could come up with. It's interesting that for all their horror the Confederation seemed to withstood the dangers of the galaxy better than the Empire and Federation.

 

[Timofnine]

How could the people that created the Queen not "get" their own character? You're reaching here. They said, verbatim, that they conceived of her as a real person and not an embodiment of the Collective, which comes across in every one of her appearances. She was a "mustache-twirling cartoon villain" from day one.

So are you saying that the Borg Collective is made up of two separate conscious entities? The Queen (1) and the trillion strong Collective (2)? Are these two things separate individual forms of being that interact with each other? If Brian Brophy Maddox was to put the Borg on trial, would their Queen be held responsible for the Collectives actions, or would the Collective itself be accountable? It has been said that the Borg are a force of nature, a natural storm can not be held accountable for the damage that it causes. Is the Collective a mere tool of the Queen, which she can manipulate and wield using her own free will? In essence, you are saying that the Queen is a ‘pilot’ who flies the Collective. How easy would it be for a species to replace the Queen and ‘steal’ her power over the Collective? Could a parasitic AI or sufficiently technologically advanced race do so?

I still stand by the perspective that though the Queen is perceived as an individual, she is a projection of the Collective which is able to act as a focal point for coordination, also being capable of face to face interactions with other species. The Borg Queen quite simply *is* the Borg. She even says so herself.

 

[F. King Daniel]

This does however mean that Janeway must decimate the Borg with her pathogen in *all* multiverses.

Jurati does say she loses in every timeline and she doesn't deny it, so possibly.

 

[Shat Happens]

I'm not 100% we ever saw phasers other than the ones on the saucer used. Maybe the one on the head of the battle section when separated, and maybe the front ventral (though maybe some other effect coming out of there)?

Of course the phaser coming out of the front torpedo tube doesn't count.

Thank you for the opportunity to geekout. I am sure the nacelle pylon phasers were fired in BOBW. I believe the quote was "FIRE ALL WEAPONS". Let me see if I can find a screenshot. EDIT better yet,a videoclip (weepons fire at 50s):

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[Ar-Pharazon]

Thank you for the opportunity to geekout. I am sure the nacelle pylon phasers were fired in BOBW. I believe the quote was "FIRE ALL WEAPONS". Let me see if I can find a screenshot. EDIT better yet,a videoclip (weepons fire at 50s):

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Good memory, I was thinking BOBW part 2 during the rescue as a possibility. But those "wing" phasers aren't coming from anywhere they had emitters.

Now, if those two beams were coming from the bottom of the pylons, it would have been close, even if the angle was wrong.

 

[Lord Exor]

So are you saying that the Borg Collective is made up of two separate conscious entities? The Queen (1) and the trillion strong Collective (2)? Are these two things separate individual forms of being that interact with each other? If Brian Brophy Maddox was to put the Borg on trial, would their Queen be held responsible for the Collectives actions, or would the Collective itself be accountable? It has been said that the Borg are a force of nature, a natural storm can not be held accountable for the damage that it causes. Is the Collective a mere tool of the Queen, which she can manipulate and wield using her own free will? In essence, you are saying that the Queen is a ‘pilot’ who flies the Collective. How easy would it be for a species to replace the Queen and ‘steal’ her power over the Collective? Could a parasitic AI or sufficiently technologically advanced race do so?

I still stand by the perspective that though the Queen is perceived as an individual, she is a projection of the Collective which is able to act as a focal point for coordination, also being capable of face to face interactions with other species. The Borg Queen quite simply *is* the Borg. She even says so herself.

You're entitled to believe what you want, but that belief contradicts canon. The Queen is part of the Collective, but has her own unique will and authority. She's their queen in a literal, not figurative, sense. If the Borg were placed on trial, the Queen, as the only Borg with agency, would absolutely be responsible for their actions.

 

[Timofnine]

You're entitled to believe what you want, but that belief contradicts canon. The Queen is part of the Collective, but has her own unique will and authority. She's their queen in a literal, not figurative, sense. If the Borg were placed on trial, the Queen, as the only Borg with agency, would absolutely be responsible for their actions.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the Borg Queen is a ‘literal Queen’ as the Borg do not have a monarchy, though I do agree that whatever the Queen is she has unique will and authority within the Collective. My conclusion of what the Queen is comes from what I interpreted from the canon as presented in First Contact and episodes which were to follow in Voyager and now Picard.

When it comes to interpreting anything in Star Trek, there is always room for interpretation beyond what is explicitly shown on screen with us fans connecting the dots and using imagination to fill in ambiguity and lazy ‘gaps’ in the writing. Whilst it may be true that the Queen is responsible for the actions of the Borg, the specifics of her role within the Collective and her relationship to it *are* open to interpretation, especially on a metaphysical level.

Additionally, it's important to note that canon itself in general can also be subject to interpretation and can change over time. As new information is introduced in episodes and films or different writers take on a story, the canon can shift or expand in unexpected, contradictive or even unsavoury (to some) ways.

In the end, as much as it is important to respect established canon, there is also value in exploring different interpretations of what is presented, using our imagination to fill in any ambiguous gaps - this can lead to new and interesting insights into a character, species, story or plot.

BTW, anything that writers say off screen is not canon. Only what has been said and depicted onscreen in episodes or movies is… with it being ‘set in stone’.

 

[Lord Exor]

In Picard, the hive analogy is taken further. Jurati's Borg refer to her, an offshoot of an alternate timeline version of the Queen, as "their Queen." Hugh calls her, "our Queen," and, "the Queen." Jack calls the Borg a form of cybernetic authoritarianism and once again refers to "their Queen." If Queen wasn't her exact title and position within the Collective, no one would be talking like this. She's their queen, she commands the Collective ("No, they haven't compromised our security. Allow the vessel to continue, for now." "It's how you get the army to follow you, my dear." "You know that signal you use to puppet your Borg?") and she's a unique person. It's pretty black-and-white; there's no further room for interpretation. Granted, there are still some things about the Borg that aren't as clear cut, but this isn't one of them.

You're attempting to overcomplicate something very simple. And I wasn't using WOG to argue canon, I'm using canon to argue canon. What we see on screen is very explicit, and the reason for that is because that's what Braga and Moore intended.

 

[Timofnine]

In Picard, the hive analogy is taken further. Jurati's Borg refer to her, an offshoot of an alternate timeline version of the Queen, as "their Queen." Hugh calls her, "our Queen," and, "the Queen." Jack calls the Borg a form of cybernetic authoritarianism and once again refers to "their Queen." If Queen wasn't her exact title and position within the Collective, no one would be talking like this. She's their queen, she commands the Collective, and she's a unique person. It's pretty black-and-white; there's no further room for interpretation. Granted, there are still some things about the Borg that aren't as clear cut, but this isn't one of them.

‘Borg Queen’ was a term coined by the Hansens to describe this Borg’s specific role within the Collective, the Borg have never referred to this being as ‘their Queen’ themselves. ‘Borg Queen’ is a third party human/Starfleet designation for this embodiment of the Collective. The modern day Star Trek writers in Picard may have misunderstood this and turned this assimilated Borg construct in to a literal Queen? This would be an example of a writer misinterpreting and misrepresenting past canon (which may also be erroneous, ambiguous or badly written) and putting their own spin on to it. But, now it has been done and depicted ‘on screen’ in Picard I guess that it is canon and should be respected as such, you are correct. Terry Matalas is the show runner and can write whatever the hell he wants, and we as fans need to blindly accept this… that is a perk of his job.

 

[Lord Exor]

‘Borg Queen’ was a term coined by the Hansens to describe this Borg’s specific role within the Collective, the Borg have never referred to this being as ‘their Queen’ themselves. ‘Borg Queen’ is a third party human/Starfleet designation for this embodiment of the Collective. The modern day Star Trek writers in Picard may have misunderstood this and turned this assimilated Borg construct in to a literal Queen? This would be an example of a writer misinterpreting and misrepresenting past canon (which may also be erroneous, ambiguous or badly written) and putting their own spin on to it. But, now it has been done and depicted ‘on screen’ in Picard I guess that it is canon and should be respected as such, you are correct. Terry Matalas is the show runner and can write whatever the hell he wants, and we as fans need to blindly accept this… that is a perk of his job.

There is no evidence within "Dark Frontier" to suggest that the term "Queen" was concocted by the Hansens. The dialogue in question:

We think he used to work near the Borg Queen. If he ever goes back there, we'll be able to track him now.

Magnus mentions this matter-of-factly, not as an invented term.

Thank goodness the Picard writers actually did their homework and relied on the on-screen source material over whatever fans wrote on a wiki (this happens sometimes in other franchises, sadly).

 

[Timofnine]

There is no evidence within "Dark Frontier" to suggest that the term "Queen" was concocted by the Hansens. The dialogue in question:

Magnus mentions this matter-of-factly, not as an invented term.

This statement is factually incorrect. you missed some dialogue out. Erin Hansen also said that the Borg Queen functioned like the queen of an insect hive, to coordinate the drones.

 

[Lord Exor]

This statement is factually incorrect. you missed some dialogue out. Erin Hansen also said that the Borg Queen functioned like the queen of an insect hive, to coordinate the drones.

I didn't miss that; it wasn't relevant. It doesn't signify "Queen" as hypothetical or approximate nomenclature. They mention that she doesn't have a throne while maintaining that she commands the drones, which, of course, she does. Janeway uses their research to determine that she exerts influence over the Collective, which she does.