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Star Wars: Visions - Anime Anthology Series
- Thread starter JD
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Oh hey what's this? Why it's an excerpt from that background/lore interview Lucas did for the licencing people back in '77 that was reprinted in Rinzler's 'Making of Star Wars' book! And what's that? This is also where the idea of Threepio being over a century old and Vader being a Sith Lord came from! Who da thunk it?!
And as a bonus: here's why Chewbacca didn't get a medal. You're Welcome.
Now can the uniformed in the audience please pipe down? Thank you kindly.
And as a bonus: here's why Chewbacca didn't get a medal. You're Welcome.
Now can the uniformed in the audience please pipe down? Thank you kindly.
I didn't like that book either way. Not a fan of the notion that Plagieus was still creeping around during the events of TPM. Palpatine does not strike me as the sort to have waited a moment longer than necessary to off the boss, let alone his entire adult life.I recommend that you don’t read the Darth Plagieus novel if you’re not a fan of midichlorians.
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Because it comes off too much like Plato's Stepchildren. Just pump someone full of midi-juice and make a better Jedi. It leads to a realm of needless technobabble explanations and excuses to explain keeping the mysticism of the Jedi while trying vainly for empirical explanations for the Force. Pick a fucking lane, Lucas.
That's 100% not how microcellular symbiosis works, and if you think otherwise, then clearly you've not been paying attention to all the failed malformed clones floating in jars.
Anyway did people just sleep through the part where the council was utterly unmoved by Anakin having a high M-count? It didn't matter to them. They still tested his aptitude and assessed his mental state, and decided NOT to train him. The only reason they relented was because Obi-Wan forced the issue, and the only reason he did that was because it was his Master's dying wish. All Anakin's M-count told Qui-Gon is that his birth was a direct intervention by the will of the force. And again, the midichlorians were merely the mechanism, not the thing itself. They were there because of the force, not the other way around.
Also being a Jedi isn't about how easily one can connect with the force. It's about being centred, calm, passive, and selfless.
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Nonsense, it's a fiction. The only reason they can't pull a Bones is so they can explain away why someone can't just super-soldier serum their way out of dependence on the mystical yahoo bullshit convention that is the Jedi and Sith. Midiclorians were stupid from the get go.
Nonsense mumbo-jumbo.
Empiricism or mysticism, pick a lane.
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No, that's still misunderstanding midi-chlorians as something separate from the body. Again, they're based on mitochondria. Mitochondria are part of every cell in your body from the moment you're conceived. They're genetically distinct symbionts, but they're an integral and inseparable part of you, of every single cell of every living thing. It makes perfect, beautiful sense that something like that, something so profoundly integral to every living organism, is the source of connection to the Force, the energy that inhabits and unites every living organism.
And there you're perpetuating the Western philosophical prejudice that the spiritual and the physical are incompatible things. Lucas based the Force on Eastern philosophy in which that distinction does not exist, in which the physical and the spiritual are one and the same. Look at, say, acupuncture, which allegedly uses physical treatment of the body to affect the flow of spiritual energy within it. Look at anime and manga's portrayal of robots and AIs, where it's generally taken for granted that they have souls, in contrast to Western sci-fi's constant debates over whether they can. For that matter, look at martial arts, at the fighting styles that inspire a lot of Jedi techniques. Martial arts are all about unifying the physical and spiritual, using one to attune to the other.
"Pick a lane" is a Western way of thinking, trapped in Manichaean dualism. Asian philosophy is more about yin and yang -- there is light within the dark and dark within the light, and the two exist in balance rather than in opposition. It's not about choosing one thing over its opposite, it's about finding the harmonious balance of both. (Which seems to be pretty much the thematic point of the "Sith" episode.)
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If the uninformed won't pipe down, they could try reading:
https://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians
"Please note: While we were preparing the text for The Making of Star Wars, Lucas added a note to this passage about midi-chlorians, bringing his original words in line with his later thoughts and the events of the prequel trilogy."
Lucas got caught BSing the public. Midichlorians as a concept did not exist in 1977.
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Why are you so rude? Maybe actually read the links that are given to you. Midichlorians were retroactively added during the making of the book. It wasn't there in the original.
Oh hey what's this? Why it's an excerpt from that background/lore interview Lucas did for the licencing people back in '77 that was reprinted in Rinzler's 'Making of Star Wars' book! And what's that? This is also where the idea of Threepio being over a century old and Vader being a Sith Lord came from! Who da thunk it?!
Was it in the OT? No. It does seem like he had an idea of it back then according to this but it's not in the OT. He introduces it in 1999 in TPM but barely explains it.
No one from 1977 to 1999 spoke about midichlorians, cell structures, ability to detect it, etc...The Force didn't have a biological aspect in the movies until 1999.
I played those old Kyle Katarn video games and in the Mara Jade spin off there were little reptile creatures called Ysalamiri that disrupted the Force. No explanation about it. Maybe it's part of their biology. Maybe it's just part of their existence.
Vague is ok especially for something like the Force. Kenobi's explanation in Star Wars about the Force is is enough for me: "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." Space magic. Fine by me.
GL had really great ideas....and some not so much(see Indy IV). This biological aspect of the Force is one of those.
Like it. Don't like it. That's up to you; and honestly makes no difference either way.
My point was simply that the claim that Lucas suddenly changed how the force works is objectively bogus. Whether or not it was mentioned in the movies (I mean seriously, where in the OT would it even come up?) also doesn't matter. The reality is that in his mind, this is how it worked, and always has. He was under no obligation to lay out every little piece of background worldbuilding that he'd come up with that wasn't immediately relevant to the given stories.
Whether the licencing people or the various Legends authors bothered to use it or not, is also besides the point; even though he did tell them about it. That he never bothered to correct any of them when they wandered off with their own ideas or misapprehensions is just more evidence of his indifference to the EU in general. Which is fine. He had better things to do with his time.
The idea he had back then appears to have been limited to an alien race which was naturally stronger in the Force than humans.Nombrecomun said:
1983:Nombrecomun said:
"The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it... and my sister has it."
"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him."
Biological.
Maybe. Does that mean Palpatine is a Skywalker(wink)? Obi Wan? Yoda?
No, that doesn't necessarily mean biological. It can be for sure. A line like that certainly lends itself to that interpretation but it isn't conclusive as you're stating.
I started watching "In the Stars" in English, then decided to go back and watch in Spanish with subtitles, since it was the same actors in both and their Chilean accents made it hard for me to make out the English dialogue; also their delivery seemed more natural in their native language, and I'm conversant enough with Spanish that I didn't need too much help from the subtitles. So that's one where it seemed better not to watch in English. Also, since it focused on indigenous aliens whose land had been colonized by the Empire, it seemed right for them not to speak English (although Spanish is just as much a colonizers' language, of course).
I couldn't quite tell whether the lip sync matched English or Spanish better. It occurred to me to wonder if they might have animated the lip sync differently for different dubs, but that seems more likely with CGI than stop motion.
Speaking of accents, it was a bit weird to hear the Aardman-style Twi'leks in "I Am Your Mother" speaking with Cockney accents when The Clone Wars and Rebels established the default Twi'lek accent as French. But I guess maybe they grew up on a different planet or something. And yes, I know these aren't Holy Canon, but I like to believe some version of these could've happened in continuity, if possible. After all, it's a big galaxy.
I couldn't quite tell whether the lip sync matched English or Spanish better. It occurred to me to wonder if they might have animated the lip sync differently for different dubs, but that seems more likely with CGI than stop motion.
Speaking of accents, it was a bit weird to hear the Aardman-style Twi'leks in "I Am Your Mother" speaking with Cockney accents when The Clone Wars and Rebels established the default Twi'lek accent as French. But I guess maybe they grew up on a different planet or something. And yes, I know these aren't Holy Canon, but I like to believe some version of these could've happened in continuity, if possible. After all, it's a big galaxy.
Oh hey what's this? Why it's an excerpt from that background/lore interview Lucas did for the licencing people back in '77 that was reprinted in Rinzler's 'Making of Star Wars' book! And what's that?
Now can the uniformed in the audience please pipe down? Thank you kindly.
No, that is not from 1977. It is from 2007's 'Making of Star Wars' book by JW Rinzler... with Lucas' retconned text to include the term 'midi-chlorians' - "they have more midi-chlorians in their cells".
The actual text from 1977: George's conversation with Carol Titelman (secretary to Charles Lippincott at the time, the Vice President of Advertising, Publicity, Promotion & Merchandising for Star Wars. Carol later went on to be in charge of Art, Publishing and Creative Services at Lucasfilm), is this:-
”It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us.”
^ as others in this thread have pointed out, JW Rinzler admits that Lucas changed the above text for his 2007 'Making Of Star Wars' book to include the line - "they have more midichlorians in their cells".
Lucas also attempted the same trick of inserting new text to old passages years before... for Jabba the Hutt - attempting to retcon in an impression that Jabba was always "fat slug-like creature", when originally, as the text shows below... Jabbas was not described as such. Lucas was caught out doing this too...
^ from Jabba the Hutt: “Wonderful Human Being” - article from The Secret History of Star Wars website.
Further info - http://episodenothing.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-truth-about-jabba-hutt.html .
Lucas sure does love a time-travelling retcon.
The first actual mention of the term 'midichlorians' by George is apparently in the 2nd screenplay draft of The Phantom Menace (cicra 1995). As stated in the 'Star Wars: The Making of Episode I The Phantom Menace' book, by Laurent Bouzereau & Jody Duncan. Well worth checking out, even for fans who don't much like the Prequels.
Maybe you should take the advice you offer others... and 'pipe down' yourself?
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"Their brains are different." So even in 1977, he was defining Force ability in terms of biology, just different biology than he decided on later.
Really, the assumption that the Force was not intended all along to have a physical, scientific explanation is rather strange. I mean, the very name -- "the Force" -- implies a natural phenomenon like the electromagnetic force or the gravitational force, and the original movie described it as "an energy field created by all living things," which sounds very physical. Of course, overt religious themes could be controversial in popular media, especially children's entertainment, so it was typical to cloak anything seemingly supernatural in a sci-fi story with a mundane physical explanation so as not to offend anyone -- for instance, the angelic Beings of Light in the original Battlestar Galactica were explained as highly evolved humanoid aliens. So by the same token, Lucas cloaked his characters' magic powers in sci-fi-sounding terminology like forces and energy fields.
No. That's an assumption. Not 'absolutely means'.
I agree an interpretation could be made for it but it's not a certainty, not conclusive as you are stating.
'So even in 1977, he was defining Force ability in terms of biology, just different biology than he decided on later.' - that is difficult to say, it likely comes down to your own 'certain point of view'...
In 1976, the film novelisation, ‘Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker’, written by George (+ ghost written by Alan Dean Foster)...
"Kenobi nodded. "I forget sometimes in whose presence I babble. Let us say simply that the force is something a Jedi must deal with. While it has never been properly explained, scientists have theorized it is an energy field generated by living things. Early man suspected its existence, yet remained in ignorance of its potential for millennia.
“Only certain individuals could recognize the force for what it was. They were mercilessly labeled: charlatans, fakers, mystics—and worse. Even fewer could make use of it. As it was usually beyond their primitive controls, it frequently was too powerful for them. They were misunderstood by their fellow—and worse.”
Kenobi made a wide, all encompassing gesture with both arms. “The force surrounds each and every one of us. Some men believe it directs our actions, and not the other way around. Knowledge of the force and how to manipulate it was what gave the Jedi his special power.”
and we also have the “Revenge of the Jedi” Story Conference Transcript, July 13 - July 17, 1981; with creator George Lucas, writer Lawrence Kasdan, director Richard Marquand, and producer Howard Kazanjian...
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also, like karate. Also, another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
as well as the famous lines from the OT films themselves...
…in Star Wars '77 as - “The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together”.
…in Empire Strikes Back as - “My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us, binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force flow around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, yes, even between the land and the ship.”
Personally, it doesn't seem biology came into it that much before work started on the Prequels - although there is of course "the force is strong in my family" line by Luke in 1983's ROTJ. Yet that itself should be take as what George was thinking in 1977 in regard to the Force. Back then Vader wasn't Luke's father, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister
I think I've waffled on enough, and this is a Visons thread after all - which I thoroughly enjoyed most, if not all, the episodes. Roll on Volume 3...
In 1976, the film novelisation, ‘Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker’, written by George (+ ghost written by Alan Dean Foster)...
"Kenobi nodded. "I forget sometimes in whose presence I babble. Let us say simply that the force is something a Jedi must deal with. While it has never been properly explained, scientists have theorized it is an energy field generated by living things. Early man suspected its existence, yet remained in ignorance of its potential for millennia.
“Only certain individuals could recognize the force for what it was. They were mercilessly labeled: charlatans, fakers, mystics—and worse. Even fewer could make use of it. As it was usually beyond their primitive controls, it frequently was too powerful for them. They were misunderstood by their fellow—and worse.”
Kenobi made a wide, all encompassing gesture with both arms. “The force surrounds each and every one of us. Some men believe it directs our actions, and not the other way around. Knowledge of the force and how to manipulate it was what gave the Jedi his special power.”
and we also have the “Revenge of the Jedi” Story Conference Transcript, July 13 - July 17, 1981; with creator George Lucas, writer Lawrence Kasdan, director Richard Marquand, and producer Howard Kazanjian...
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also, like karate. Also, another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
as well as the famous lines from the OT films themselves...
…in Star Wars '77 as - “The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together”.
…in Empire Strikes Back as - “My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us, binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force flow around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, yes, even between the land and the ship.”
Personally, it doesn't seem biology came into it that much before work started on the Prequels - although there is of course "the force is strong in my family" line by Luke in 1983's ROTJ. Yet that itself should be take as what George was thinking in 1977 in regard to the Force. Back then Vader wasn't Luke's father, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister
I think I've waffled on enough, and this is a Visons thread after all - which I thoroughly enjoyed most, if not all, the episodes. Roll on Volume 3...
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Perhaps not, but those quotes are consistent with what I said, that he was treating it as a physical energy field, at most a kind of "science we don't understand yet," much like psychic phenomena were widely believed to be back then. Any spiritual or religious element was kept to a minimum, glossed over with secular interpretations (e.g. it's created by life rather than some kind of divine influence), as one would expect of kid-friendly popular media of the era. Certainly TESB took it in a more mystical direction than the original film did, but that's the greater freedom that comes with success. The point is that it didn't start out as particularly mystical. "Force" and "energy field" are terms we use for physical phenomena in nature. Biological explanations, whether brains or midi-chlorians, are also physical, natural phenomena. So there's nothing remotely unprecedented about explaining the Force in terms of natural phenomena.
