Speed of Plot Consternation

[Farscape One]

I just got home, and for a second, I read the thread title as 'Speed of Plot Constipation'.

Damn the Florida sun.

 

[drt]

Gene Roddenberry stated that he wanted to avoid the ever-increasing warp factors used in the original series to force added tension to the story, and so imposed the limit of warp 10 as infinite speed.

No, instead of using their "Existing Formula" from TNG for Warp Factors 1-9, and just let the #'s run indefinitely up to infinity.

They arbitrarily decided to add in a special exception for speeds "Post Warp 9" and have the hand-drawn curve to infinity.

It's completely assinine to design a perfectly good Warp Factor Formula, and then make a werid ass exception that requires you to add 9.9… and extra 9's after the Decimal place to represent the increase in spead. That's basically trying to trick the audience.

IMO, compressing the speed values past Wf 9 was a very silly decision by Gene Roddenberry.
They could've left things alone and just increased Wf naturally.
All he did was substitute one problem for another and created unnecessary confusion.

Agreed. It was only on maybe two occasions they exceeded Warp 10 in TOS, most of the time they were pretty good at holding to anything above Warp 7 was dangerously fast for Enterprise.

It seems like they could have just made the 1701-D have a Warp 8 cruising and Warp 12 emergency speed instead of doing the dopey Warp 9.999 crap. Then just mandate in the writers’ guide that something like Warp 15 was going to be your speed limit for anyone, which is essentially how it worked in TOS.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Agreed. It was only on maybe two occasions they exceeded Warp 10 in TOS, most of the time they were pretty good at holding to anything above Warp 7 was dangerously fast for Enterprise.

Really, only 2x Occaisions? WTF was Gene worried about?

It seems like they could have just made the 1701-D have a Warp 8 cruising and Warp 12 emergency speed instead of doing the dopey Warp 9.999 crap. Then just mandate in the writers’ guide that something like Warp 15 was going to be your speed limit for anyone, which is essentially how it worked in TOS.

Yeah, the add extra 9's after the 9.9… is just silly.
I even did the #'s, if you try to follow any sense of internal believable consistency, you're not going to get big #'s unless it's absolutely necessary for things like "Real Time Communications" across the Milky Way Galaxy with Project PathFinder.

Short of that, most vessels won't be going that fast.

 

[C.E. Evans]

There was nothing wrong with Roddenberry perhaps wanting to simplify the warp scale for TNG by just having it be Warp 1 through Warp 10, with the latter being absolute or whatever. Ideally, anything around Warp 9 would have been more than fast enough for our heroes to get anywhere they wanted to very quickly (while still keeping our Galaxy a very big place), and avoid having to say stuff like "Warp 37" or "Warp 142." The problem was that it wasn't explained or enforced very well with writers and producers, IMO, and we wound up with cumbersome stuff like Warp 9.975 anyway. So much for trying to keep the warp scale simple...

So even if the Enterprise could travel at infinite speed, there was bound to be an episode in which she could travel faster than that because some people have little or no restraint when they write stuff. They always want the ship to go faster...

 

[fireproof78]

Really, only 2x Occaisions? WTF was Gene worried about?

The mileage.

 

[Christopher]

Really, only 2x Occaisions? WTF was Gene worried about?

Maybe he was thinking of TAS: "The Counter-Clock Incident" depicting an alien ship traveling at warp 36.

 

[Farscape One]

Just for fun, I'd like to see someone go to warp 47.

 

[drt]

Really, only 2x Occaisions? WTF was Gene worried about?

I remembered a third, but there might be a couple more:

"The Changeling" - Nomad's modifications, Warp 11 (bonus: Nomad's energy bolts traveled Warp 15)
"By Any Other Name" - Kelvan modifications, Warp 11
"That Which Survives" - runaway engine malfunction, Warp 14.1

As @Christopher mentioned TAS had a single instance of Warp 36 which might have been the impetus, although, I suppose it was also a way for Roddenberry to invalidate the TOS movies' transwarp stuff as well.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

There was nothing wrong with Roddenberry perhaps wanting to simplify the warp scale for TNG by just having it be Warp 1 through Warp 10, with the latter being absolute or whatever. Ideally, anything around Warp 9 would have been more than fast enough for our heroes to get anywhere they wanted to very quickly (while still keeping our Galaxy a very big place), and avoid having to say stuff like "Warp 37" or "Warp 142." The problem was that it wasn't explained or enforced very well with writers and producers, IMO, and we wound up with cumbersome stuff like Warp 9.975 anyway. So much for trying to keep the warp scale simple...

So even if the Enterprise could travel at infinite speed, there was bound to be an episode in which she could travel faster than that because some people have little or no restraint when they write stuff. They always want the ship to go faster...

Writers also want our protagonists to travel further in a reasonable amount of time as well.

That's why, despite how "Non-Sensical" the Spore Drive turned out to be, I don't dislike it.

In-fact, with the requirement to have a "Biological Navigator" to even operate it to jump to great distances, I don't really have any fundamental issues with it.

In fact, it solves alot of issues that having other "Faster FTL Drives" does as well. It just does it in a different way with different limitations.

Just for fun, I'd like to see someone go to warp 47.

I'll put that on the list of notes as one of the Warp speeds to be executed at that time.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It's treated inconsistently because the writing staff doesn't value accurate Time Portrayals in a TV show like "24" was famous for. Where each episode / hour was "Real Time".

There's a certain nice quality to a show like that where you know how much time has occured and that it was stated clearly as to how long things take.

24 cheated on travel times all the time. Jack Bauer consistently got to places in considerably less time than it would take him IRL. Los Angeles traffic is rather infamous.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

24 cheated on travel times all the time. Jack Bauer consistently got to places in considerably less time than it would take him IRL. Los Angeles traffic is rather infamous.

I deal with LA traffic ALL the time; depending on the situation, some of the travel is possible, some isn't.
It's all situational based on IRL traffic patterns and where he's coming from and where is he going to.

I've made amazing time in heavy traffic patterns, it all depends on which routes you take.

 

[fireproof78]

Drama will trump practicality at almost every case. Now, that's not an excuse so much as that is my own personal reconciliation with the fact that some time tables don't make sense. My personal favorite is in "The Menagerie" were Spock takes Pike in to the turbolift to beam down to Talos IV and Kirk turns in his chair to see Pike and Vina on the planet.

I can understand the consternation but at this point it's one of those things that I have to shrug and accept or else entertainment starts to become less enjoyable.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Writers also want our protagonists to travel further in a reasonable amount of time as well.

That time is dictated more by the pacing of a particular story than anything else, IMO

...despite how "Non-Sensical" the Spore Drive turned out to be, I don't dislike it.

In-fact, with the requirement to have a "Biological Navigator" to even operate it to jump to great distances, I don't really have any fundamental issues with it.

In fact, it solves alot of issues that having other "Faster FTL Drives" does as well. It just does it in a different way with different limitations.

In a real sense, it doesn't matter if it's warp drive, spore drive, or my uncle's drive, because a ship will still get wherever it needs to go whenever it needs to be there. Using a [INSERT SUPER-DUPER PROPULSION SYSTEM HERE] may simply enable some writers to stick an official name to the ship's speed-of-plot engines.

 

[fireproof78]

That time is dictated more by the pacing of a particular story than anything else, IMO

I am reminded of one of my favorite authors and his brief story about loving "B Westerns" as a child. He always found it irritating with people who would do what he called "shot counting," and would call out in the theater, "Old Gene (Autry) hasn't reloaded yet. Must be using a 9 shooter!"

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That time is dictated more by the pacing of a particular story than anything else, IMO

And now we have the tools to make it happen with the numerous Advanced FTL drives beyond Warp Drive.

In a real sense, it doesn't matter if it's warp drive, spore drive, or my uncle's drive, because a ship will still get wherever it needs to go whenever it needs to be there. Using a [INSERT SUPER-DUPER PROPULSION SYSTEM HERE] may simply enable some writers to stick an official name to the ship's speed-of-plot engines.

Well, now you have plenty of choices of FTL drives In-Universe to use.
Just use them appropriately.

I am reminded of one of my favorite authors and his brief story about loving "B Westerns" as a child. He always found it irritating with people who would do what he called "shot counting," and would call out in the theater, "Old Gene (Autry) hasn't reloaded yet. Must be using a 9 shooter!"

That also breaks immersion to those who value as much reality as possible.
In one of the video games I was watching a YT video on, it was a western, and I was seeing the protagonist fire 26 shots out of a 6-shot Revolver w/o reloading.

He just kept going & going. That was killing the vibe for me since it broke with common sense IRL rules.

There's nothing wrong with trying to make content based on reality and following as much reality as possible or in-universe established rules.

 

[Christopher]

I am reminded of one of my favorite authors and his brief story about loving "B Westerns" as a child. He always found it irritating with people who would do what he called "shot counting," and would call out in the theater, "Old Gene (Autry) hasn't reloaded yet. Must be using a 9 shooter!"

Not long ago, I watched the old Republic Zorro serials, and there were a lot of long chase scenes with the pursuers and pursued just firing wildly into the air for dozens of shots without reloading. I had to wonder, even aside from the reloading issue, what the point of wasting that much ammo was, aside from noise and effect, which was surely the point to the filmmakers.

(I also frequently thought to myself, "Why are we supposed to root for the cowboys? The horses are doing most of the work!")

 

[fireproof78]

There's nothing wrong with trying to make content based on reality and following as much reality as possible or in-universe established rules.

Again, this is not the "right or wrong" show. This is "What do I value?" type of a question. You value reality on a much higher level than many others I have interacted with. I use to, and wrote SF and fantasy to be as realistic as possible when working with friends. But, for me, it became less fun. I was doing a ton of research on various facets of technology and describing the long history of FTL and weaponry or technology and it became a tome of tech speak over actually valuing people and their interactions.

So, while I will certainly roll my eyes at "bottomless clips" it doesn't take value away from the entertainment piece.

Do I enjoy it when it hits closer to reality? Sure. Do I require it? No, nor do I think it's wrong.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Again, this is not the "right or wrong" show. This is "What do I value?" type of a question. You value reality on a much higher level than many others I have interacted with. I use to, and wrote SF and fantasy to be as realistic as possible when working with friends. But, for me, it became less fun. I was doing a ton of research on various facets of technology and describing the long history of FTL and weaponry or technology and it became a tome of tech speak over actually valuing people and their interactions.

So, while I will certainly roll my eyes at "bottomless clips" it doesn't take value away from the entertainment piece.

Do I enjoy it when it hits closer to reality? Sure. Do I require it? No, nor do I think it's wrong.

So in the end, we're very different people and value different things.

You want the entertainment side of things, I want a historical fiction simulation that is turned into a documentary on the exploits of a crews actions and lives.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I am reminded of one of my favorite authors and his brief story about loving "B Westerns" as a child. He always found it irritating with people who would do what he called "shot counting," and would call out in the theater, "Old Gene (Autry) hasn't reloaded yet. Must be using a 9 shooter!"

While it might sound like I might be criticizing the speed-of-plot, I'm really not--I'm just proposing that it's a common enough element that it's really not something unusual, and definitely not worth crunching numbers, since the people who make this stuff don't.

 

[fireproof78]

So in the end, we're very different people and value different things.

You want the entertainment side of things, I want a historical fiction simulation that is turned into a documentary on the exploits of a crews actions and lives.

In Star Trek I value characters above all else.

I'll happily watch a documentary about military or other uniform organizations and learn how they work. But Trek isn't constructed as a documentary.