Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[Markonian]

Thinking of Admiral Elizabeth Shelby and how New Frontier stood a little bit apart from the larger Treklit, how much of New Frontier's events "did happen"?

In DSC, there's a USS Excalibur NCC-1664-M in the 3180s. We know that canonically, ships can have more than one registry number, so the Ambassador-class USS Excalibur was primarily NCC-26517 and perhaps secondarily NCC-1664-letter. Does that still allow for the Galaxy-class Excalibur (NCC-26517-A and NCC-1664-letter+) to exist?

In the non-canon tie-in Star Trek Online, Captain Mackenzie Calhoun serves aboard Deep Space K-7 under Commander Naomi Wildman 2409-2411. There's even a contemporary USS Excalibur (NCC-78547, Excalibur class).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We know that canonically, ships can have more than one registry number

Huh?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Huh?

I’m not sure, but Markonian may be referring to the USS Yamato having two different registry numbers between its two appearances (Where Silence Has Lease and Contagion). Which seems more like a production error rather than doubling up on ship registration numbers...

 

[David cgc]

The Yamato is a tricky one to square, though, since the "wrong" registry is so much more prominent than the correct one. Allowing that ships could semi-officially have lettered legacy registries along with chronological registries before 2380-ish (as Starfleet, presumably, looked in terror at the impending arrival of six-digit hull numbers and needed to slow allocation down) is an interesting solution.

Still, though, even from a strictly canon perspective, we have a name that was being assigned chronological registries switched to a legacy registry commemorating what wasn't the most recent vessel. So since we're already going 1664, 26517, eventually 1664-A, why can't there be a 26517-A, -B, and so on, and then eventually a 1664-A (maybe there's some event that makes Starfleet want to specifically commemorate the TOS Excalibur, like the 1664-A is some kind of milestone in AI integration). Alternatively, to make it easier to distinguish the ships verbally, maybe Calhoun's Excalibur is recognized with the -A and -B, and then the Excalibur-C keeps the letter progression but switches to the older number. That'd make the names easier to say, but it would be very confusing for the numbers.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I’m not sure, but Markonian may be referring to the USS Yamato having two different registry numbers between its two appearances (Where Silence Has Lease and Contagion). Which seems more like a production error rather than doubling up on ship registration numbers...

Yeah, I'm going with "error" on the Yamato as well.

And the Prometheus.

 

[Sci]

It's been a very long time since I read those books, but I can't really think of much from the New Frontier series that's precluded by the canonical revelations. Like, I guess the implication that Morgan Primus might have been Number One has been nullified by what Strange New Worlds has revealed about Una Chin-Riley, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason Elizabeth Shelby couldn't have served aboard the USS Excelsior in Sector 221-G after the collapse of the Thallonian Empire in 2373.

 

[Avro Arrow]

In the non-canon tie-in Star Trek Online, Captain Mackenzie Calhoun serves aboard Deep Space K-7 under Commander Naomi Wildman 2409-2411.

How does a captain serve under a commander?

I’m not sure, but Markonian may be referring to the USS Yamato having two different registry numbers between its two appearances (Where Silence Has Lease and Contagion). Which seems more like a production error rather than doubling up on ship registration numbers...

Wasn't Yamato the ship with three different registry numbers? No one knew what was going on with that one...

But I would probably consider it a production error too.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

It's been a very long time since I read those books, but I can't really think of much from the New Frontier series that's precluded by the canonical revelations. Like, I guess the implication that Morgan Primus might have been Number One has been nullified by what Strange New Worlds has revealed about Una Chin-Riley, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason Elizabeth Shelby couldn't have served aboard the USS Excelsior in Sector 221-G after the collapse of the Thallonian Empire in 2373.

Think, depending on what further happens with Una in SNW, Morgan Primus isn't neccesarily being nullified. Her immortality and name change could be explained by something still waiting to happen

 

[Markonian]

Huh?

Memory Alpha has unearthed Okudagrams with loads of Starfleet ships that share/duplicate registry numbers, have different numbers over the years, and generally numbers all across the board. In episodes, the Yamato-E and the Prometheus-class Prometheus bear different registries

How does a captain serve under a commander?

Lieutenant Ayala served under Ensign Kim. More recently, we had four-star Admiral Picard as XO under Captain Riker. Position outranks rank, apparently.

Calhoun's Excalibur is recognized with the -A and -B, and then the Excalibur-C keeps the letter progression but switches to the older number. That'd make the names easier to say, but it would be very confusing for the numbers.

That could explain the NCC-26517-A followed (eventually) by an NCC-1664-M.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Lieutenant Ayala served under Ensign Kim. More recently, we had four-star Admiral Picard as XO under Captain Riker. Position outranks rank, apparently.

Fair enough. (Although the Picard/Riker one could have something to do with the fact that Picard was retired and Riker was still on active duty.) Thinking about it, didn't O'Brien supposedly have ensigns reporting to him in DS9? I guess I just shouldn't really expect Starfleet to always make sense in situations like these!

 

[Unimatrix Q]

One thing i wonder about, in retrospect, what changed the Borg's approach and power in the First Splinter Timeline compared to canon?

They went from sending hundreds (or was it even thousands?) of cubes to destroy the civilizations in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants to apparently just having one massive cube with a single Queen feasting on the drones and relying on an insidious plan to use Jean Luc's offspring to biologically assimilate people in Starfleet under 25 for destroying just the Federation.

 

[ryan123450]

One thing i wonder about, in retrospect, what changed the Borg's approach and power in the First Splinter Timeline compared to canon?

They went from sending hundreds (or was it even thousands?) of cubes to destroy the civilizations in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants to apparently just having one massive cube with a single Queen feasting on the drones…

I think a realistic solution is to accept that even though the post First Contact episodes and films are supposed to occur the same in both timelines, there actually must be “behind the scenes” changes that started to accumulate as the years went by. So for instance whatever exactly Janeway did to the Queen must have actually been different in each timeline, with different long term effects.

and relying on an insidious plan to use Jean Luc's offspring to biologically assimilate people in Starfleet under 25 for destroying just the Federation.

Just realized Rene most likely had the same Borg infected genetic abnormalities Jack did.

 

[David cgc]

We’ve gotten enough mixed messages about the Borg’s status post-“Endgame” in canon, that it’s possible the collective has fractured and has many separate collectives in varying degrees of disfunction. Just because this Queen, implicitly the same incarnation that Future-Janeway infected originally, was cut off doesn’t mean there aren’t other pockets of Borg who may have been able to rejoin and rebuild more effectively in one or both timelines.

And this Queen might not literally be the same one we saw in “Endgame.” That one wasn’t in a cube when we saw her last, after all. This could be the cube from “Resistance,” for example, or one like it.

 

[The Wormhole]

didn't O'Brien supposedly have ensigns reporting to him in DS9?

It's more messed up than that. O'Brien had Lieutenants answering to him, which really gets confusing since O'Brien did once state in dialogue that Ensigns outrank him. So, apparently O'Brien answers to an Ensign, an Ensign answers to a Lieutenant, but that Lieutenant answers to O'Brien.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Thinking of Admiral Elizabeth Shelby and how New Frontier stood a little bit apart from the larger Treklit, how much of New Frontier's events "did happen"?

To me, there's four possible New Frontiers.

There's PAD's New Frontier, in books and comics written by him, under that banner, also including Vendetta, the young adult TNG novels, and Double or Nothing. This is the Canon.

There's near-New Frontier, which is No Limits and The First Virtue, which are consistent with PAD's New Frontier but might not be part of it. These are Pastiches.

There's Treklit New Frontier, which is Before Dishonor and Destiny -- there's a Mackenzie Calhoun and the Excalibur in the First Splinter, but we don't know if this is the same Calhoun and Excalibur of PAD's New Frontier. Some readers may put Vendetta and the YA novels here. This is the Great Game. This is debates over Watson's Middle Name or Watson's Wound.

Finally, there's Picard New Frontier -- does the Elizabeth Shelby we see here have any points of commonality with any of the possible New Frontiers? Does she know a Mackenzie Calhoun? Is she, in fact, the Captain Shelby from "You Are Cordially Invited"? We simply do not know. She could belong to any of the three I've listed above. She could belong to none of them. We have no evidence on any of these points. The existence of this New Frontier will remain forever speculative. This is the Boojum of New Frontiers.

 

[David Mack]

Fair enough. (Although the Picard/Riker one could have something to do with the fact that Picard was retired and Riker was still on active duty.) Thinking about it, didn't O'Brien supposedly have ensigns reporting to him in DS9? I guess I just shouldn't really expect Starfleet to always make sense in situations like these!

It's more messed up than that. O'Brien had Lieutenants answering to him, which really gets confusing since O'Brien did once state in dialogue that Ensigns outrank him. So, apparently O'Brien answers to an Ensign, an Ensign answers to a Lieutenant, but that Lieutenant answers to O'Brien.

The confusion here is the difference between rating (for enlisted personnel and noncoms), rank (for officers), and billet. Rating and rank indicate one's relative position in the hierarchy of command. Billet is one's official job function. And yes, in most cases, billet supersedes rank or rating.

O'Brien was likely a Master Chief Petty Officer in rating, but his billet was Chief of Operations, which gives him authority over all job functions that answer to that office. That said, even if he didn't hold such a lofty title, in most naval organizations, junior officers (especially ensigns and junior lieutenants) know not to pull rank on a Master Chief. Chief petty officers are often tasked with training new officers in the basic functions of their job, and typically have direct oversight of key departments on any ship.

Trust me when I tell you there is nothing remotely unusual about officers showing respect to a Master Chief, especially one with a senior-command-level billet.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

O'Brien was likely a Master Chief Petty Officer in rating, but his billet was Chief of Operations, which gives him authority over all job functions that answer to that office.

More likely a Senior Chief Petty Officer (E8) in rating during the series proper as he's referred to as a "Chief Petty Officer" and a "Senior Chief Specialist" on separate occassions but never as Master Chief Petty Officer/Specialist, but that doesn't really undermine your point (and he is a Master Chief during the back end of TrekLit).

 

[Sci]

One thing i wonder about, in retrospect, what changed the Borg's approach and power in the First Splinter Timeline compared to canon?

They went from sending hundreds (or was it even thousands?) of cubes to destroy the civilizations in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants to apparently just having one massive cube with a single Queen feasting on the drones and relying on an insidious plan to use Jean Luc's offspring to biologically assimilate people in Starfleet under 25 for destroying just the Federation.

I think it's pretty clear that one of the variables that changed between the Prime Timeline and the First Splinter Timeline is that in the FST, somewhere along the line the Borg were able to figure out enough about how the neurolytic pathogen worked as to counter it before the entire Collective consciousness collapsed. Perhaps in the FST, they assimilated someone between 2373 and 2378 who knew enough about how neurolytic pathogens worked that they were able to devise a counter-measure after the transwarp network collapsed but before the Collective itself dissolved.

I think a realistic solution is to accept that even though the post First Contact episodes and films are supposed to occur the same in both timelines, there actually must be “behind the scenes” changes that started to accumulate as the years went by. So for instance whatever exactly Janeway did to the Queen must have actually been different in each timeline, with different long term effects.

Possibly. Or there could be that the events of Star Trek: Voyager unfolded identically in both timelines, but what the Borg were up to off-camera was different from the Prime Timeline to the First Splinter Timeline.

Just realized Rene most likely had the same Borg infected genetic abnormalities Jack did.

Possibly. I do find myself picturing Ed Speleers as Adult Rene when picturing the events of Coda now, even though I don't think they're actually the same character.

 

[Enterprise1701]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cri0TeJrRvv/

https://twitter.com/DaveBlass/status/1651592233630543877

Dave Blass has stated that the one of the Sovereign-class ships in PIC 3.10 is the U.S.S. Inaieu (NCC-75018), a nod to the Defender-class U.S.S. Inaieu (NCC-2003) from Diane Duane's novels.

https://twitter.com/DaveBlass/status/1651614215319306242

Another one is the U.S.S. Jaresh-Inyo (NCC-75020), though Blass declined to clarify whether former President Jaresh-Inyo himself is deceased by 2401.

 

[Markonian]

Awesome!

How do you pronounce Inaieu?