Well I don't consider anything beyond pikes first line in the cage true canon!!!!! There I am the ultimate fan and purist!
Thats it. I dont consider Disc , SNW , or Picard cannon
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Fuck me lad you need to give your head a wobble.
Reads like some kid in the yard going on about how "my dad is bigger than your dad and would totally knock your dad, The Rock, and Mike Tyson out with one punch."
I've seen fucking Man Utd fans and Chelsea fans talk more sense about the Liverpool team of the last few years that these posts.
No one here has any issue with you disliking the new era of Trek shows - they aren't for everybody and are obviously not perfect.
Fact is that plenty of people like them though and it is disrespectful to those people to imply or infer that they are cognitively lacking or just saying they like it to fit in.
Make the arguement in a less tabloid manner and people will engage.
Push people away by shouting in their faces though and you will continue to hit a brick wall.
Here, for all of you's viewing pleasure - a visual representation of the thread
Sometimes people push away even if you do and say nothing, yet send them a good sum of money with nothing to expect in return. There are those that push away just to push away, I suspect it's some deep rooted psychological, or emotional issue.
Fine then. Let's say peolle like new trek. Go watch the dialogue of new trek and compare it to those of Berman trek or even Roddenberry trek (although Berman as annoying as he was, he was the overseer of peak trek). I'm sorry, but it's just bad. To me. Great, intellectual, wise, advanced, learned, experienced dialogue makes or breaks everything. I'm sorry but "this is the power of math people”, is so ridiculous and laughably insane I'm shocked albeit not surprised at all that whoever wrote that most likely got promoted for it.
Someone here mentioned the premiere of SNW, and how they liked how humans met a random species for the first time, broke the prime directive (the new generation REALLY HATES THE PRIME DIRECTIVE. They think that we are so much "better" and "superior" that we must get involved and must judge alien cultures by our standards, and it happens all the time.in New trek), and then decided to explain earths warring history.
I'm sorry, but, is this a joke? Or do these writers really think this is so "intelligent" and "wise"? It's absolutely batchit insane. First, it's extremely insulting. If an alien culture came down and said "oh you better don't do this and do that instead because look at WE DID, everyone is just like us and will behave like us, so you better listen and don't do that or you'll end up being as stupid as we were. Which begs thr question. If humans got out of that predicament, then why tell the aliens not to do it if they would get out of that predicament too? It implies that humans are so good they can nuke their planet and then suddenly become wise and peaceful, but the alien culture their telling it too, won't. Because they're not human of course. We humans are the best, right. We are so superior. It's insulting..not only that. But do you think Picard or sisko or janeway would ever break the prime directive to go to that planet in snw episode 1, and let's say for some reason they did (at least they'd have an ACTUAL reason other than "cuz mah feelingzz feelz leiks it"), they wouldn't show a FKN MONTAGE of earth during its worst war time. It would not only be embarrassing, but first.impressions are everything. Janeway, sisko, Picard, even archer, would never embarrass themselves and show how violent they could be and how Savage they were by showing that montage. They'd never embarrass the federation like that. It's idiotic, especially on first fking contact. First contact is to be done only with warp civilizations and you should put your best foot forward and worry about any ugliness later once deals or treaties have been established. You don't go down and say "hey look we are so advanced, we have a prime directive. That we don't follow whenever we want, on and look at our violent, Savage history. Welcome to the federation anytime you like..oh don't worry your planet won't be nuked like we nuked ours", and it's also insulting because like I said, it implies this alien culture is just as Savage like earth was during its wars. Except it implies an even worse fate, that the aliens may not get out of their wars alive. It's just so unintelligent. The writers must have thought they're writing such "humble and honest" characters. But they have NO CLUE OR IDEA what humility and honesty means. Never does it mean that a representative of a supposed benevolent federation breaks the prime directive only to embarrass themselves and their federation, and imply that they can judge an alien society based on their standards alone, and imply that these aliens will go on a similar path to humans. Now this is where I would truly say "sheer fuking hubris". And that's all it is once again from our brilliant so called "writers"..the hubris to try and act like we are so saintly because of our federation to the point the earths past, is just that, a slight mistake that happened. No biggie. We got over it because we are fkn human, and humans are the chit..but we better warn the aliens because if they follow our path (which of course they will everyone culture vultures humanity), than they will not make it out the other end of their war. Sheer hubris
To finish my above post, if those aliens behaved like how REAL aliens would most likely behave, once they saw that montage, they would be extremely hard pressed to ever trust the federation or humans, and would most likely prefer NOT to deal with earth or the federation. So would anyone rational, especially if this info is just shared on first contact as if it's nothing. Your not showing them something minor. Like political disagreements. Your showing them.you can't be trusted at all because your Savage and violent and have no hesitation to nuke your own people and planet, so if some circumstance forced the federation to be warlike, they'd obviously not hesitate at all to wreck another world since they're so easily able to wreck their own..SNW episode 1, terrible. And Spock. Thays NOT SPOCK, and episode 10 snw Kirk, definitely isn't Kirk. I bet Shatner is crying seeing his likeness and name ruined and destroyed.
Yeah, but come on.
Kirk loved breaking the Prime Directive just as much as anyone.
The dialogue in new shows is probably more conversational than old Trek but old Trek also could seem stilted and boring.
I don't think any of the older shows are perfect. They all have a few rubbish seasons. The films are a mixed bag. Sometimes there's enough elements that someone is going to like it them though.
All I know is these Trek guys are trying their best. Maybe they don't succeed and maybe I hate what they do and often play armchair critic about what I think should have been done but I don't think they ain't trying and that there aren't people that respond to it positively. Not all of Trek is for everyone. It's an oddity that such a long running franchise should even be treated this way. In Transformers or Sherlock Holmes it's just taken for granted that what comes next might be wildly different than what came before because someone has a new idea. You just have to take a step back and go this ain't for me and that's okay.
Kirk loved breaking the Prime Directive just as much as anyone.
The dialogue in new shows is probably more conversational than old Trek but old Trek also could seem stilted and boring.
I don't think any of the older shows are perfect. They all have a few rubbish seasons. The films are a mixed bag. Sometimes there's enough elements that someone is going to like it them though.
All I know is these Trek guys are trying their best. Maybe they don't succeed and maybe I hate what they do and often play armchair critic about what I think should have been done but I don't think they ain't trying and that there aren't people that respond to it positively. Not all of Trek is for everyone. It's an oddity that such a long running franchise should even be treated this way. In Transformers or Sherlock Holmes it's just taken for granted that what comes next might be wildly different than what came before because someone has a new idea. You just have to take a step back and go this ain't for me and that's okay.
Then you would think they'd hire consultants who KNOW and understand trek. Yes Kirk broke the prime directive QUITE ALOT, but when they first mentioned the prime directive. It somewhat slowed down, and they made reasonable excuses to break it. And it was the first show. By tng, the prime directive was taken very seriously. However, you don't start the first show, about a federation starship, after the prime directive rule has been Canon for nearly 60 years, and break it in the first episode. You don't make your first impression, be a bad one, by showing one of the founding members of the federation's extremely questionable and violent history. If aliens came to earth today and showed us a montage of them nearly destroying their home world, all of us would be on EXTREMELY high alert regarding their Intentions, and remain suspicious, even if we thought they were being "humble and honest". We wouldn't believe a word they'd say if our first impression of them was that they're planet wreckers. Thats my point..how can a writer NOT recognize this? Why couldn't the first episode be about NOT breaking the prime directive, and about how sometimes, you have to stand by the rules that govern the federation, because when you break even one of its precepts, especially its most MAJOR and LONG LASTING ONE, ITS PRIME LAW, you undermine everything you are out there for, and undermine the very federation you believe in and have sworn to uphold.
Seriously what?
Can someone please tell me how a "real" alien is meant to behave?
I said most likely behave. Assume we are the aliens and another alien species came down, and their first contact is of them warning us of our "path", judging us by their standards, and to top it off, showing us their history of them nearly wiping each other out. You wouldn't trust them that much anymore would you? Youd be suspicious..please try to comprehend my point before you try to just "shut me down" for laughs or memes
I think there is some fair criticism to be made of the approach taken in SNW ep 1 (although note, on a smaller scale, that The Orville did something similar with their storyline about the person stealing tech to give to a planet that isn't yet ready).
The takeaway for me was that we were meant to be showing these people just how close to going down that road we got (if I remember right, their "nukes" were "warp nukes" or something so much more devastating but also how the PD got broken first as they thought it was a warp engine being detected at first) but also how we pulled out of the nose dive.
That said I can appreciate the opposite view.
It is worth remembering that often the OG captains would moralise/break the PD/expect people to conform to "human standards"
Think actually TUC very cleverly points this out when the Klingons call out the phrase "inalienable human rights" (or something similar) and how it "others" non humans.
And there was the time Kirk said "everyone's humaN". I agree of course..but there's something about the way they wrote those scripts. The music they used. The color pallete..the direction. All of that just came out so beautifully and well made. And I think the writers who included the quotes you and I mentioned, purposely thought about it and purposely included it in the script, as a way to show to the viewers that they're CLEARLY aware of what they're writing. But I don't recognize this in modern trek. New trek takes itself way too seriously, with ZERO leeway for interpretation, or thought, or reflection.
Idk. I've always been a very fast learner and always have been very acutely aware of the passage of time and worry about it daily, far more so than most. I see this. And wonder. Just when did time fly so fast..why does it seem society has become more jaded now, when there are seemingly more freedoms and rights especially to certain groups or minorities, than before, when they were still struggling for equality. Reminds me of the episode "progress" in ds9, when Kira realizes she fought all her life against the cardassians, but now shes on the other side, essentially where the "bloody cardies" were as the chief would say, and she just felt horrible. I suppose I feel similarly about this. Crying emoji. It seems truly, the journey is far more important and memorable, than the destination. Isn't it.
Can't disagree with anything in your first paragraph and you are bang on that it was meant to point out that the Federation wasn't perfect, and that acceptance of this lack of perfection was the first step to building bridges with the Klingons - there is no doubt that it was very cleverly done and that those writers were near as dammit geniuses when they got it right.
That era also gave us Code of Honour...
I know what you mean about how there isn't time to smell the roses these days. What has to be remember, especially with regard to those who have had their rights substantially levelled over the last 20-30 years (legalising gay marriage, better workplace equality laws etc) is that what we grew up with was only the beginning. There is still a major element of social bias and unconscious bias to remove before true equality can be found (only need to look at the lad who go shot in the states for knocking on the wrong door, or the pub in Essex (why is it always fucking Essex?) that wants to still hang Golliwogs in there) to see that people are not all in yet.
Also, it was very easy when growing up pre social media to simply not see or be aware of a lot of these problems - it is now obviously much more widely seen and known about so it can seem like things are regressing when if fact it is just the case that people now have a voice.
"Peak Trek" - ugh, peak peak peak peak peak peak peak peak. Seems ironic considering the hip trendy dialogue of today versus that of yesteryear.
And I agree; 20th century Trek came across more erudite due to the (generally) more formal use of language, which adds to the feel of a different period in time. If not a more professional one, but we also have news articles claiming people nowadays can't read beyond 5th grade level. Yet 5th graders three decades ago managed to handle the treknobabble and all espoused by the actors...
TOS had Kirk hating the prime directive too. Even Picard broke it. Sisko broke it big-time. Maybe there's a reason for that?
Sounds like something the Borg would have said? Only they took it the next step, after using so many multisyllabic words that the audience went right to sleep in 1990...
A few choice episodes from season 1 TNG aren't any better. Lonely Among Us, Neutral Zone, and a few others have the bridge crew acting incredibly up-nosed and holier-than-thou* toward the alien species delegates of the week and so on.
* "thou" - used in Shakespeare's day and means "all of you". Not the wacked diminutive of "though", for which I've no clue how that caught on... funny how language changes. Even funnier is what precipitates it, I suppose. What next, we get to a point where 'ug' and 'grunt' are too intimidating as far as word structure and utterances go?
Pike is from a century earlier. This is a reason I loathe prequels, stemming back to ENT. It's too easy to forget not the minutiae but large-enough established situations and they write something that's impossible to fit in. (or they do sweeps week garbage by showing Earth destroyed, but we all know it'll survive - or we end up in a new timeline, which doesn't always work... ) Either way, it works great for some, not for others. The show will do something new or a new show will be influenced by Trek and go off to do its own things and people might like that. Look at Firefly and other shows, which were clearly influenced by what preceded those. Star Wars was a retelling of a bunch of 1940s serials mixed with other cultures' fashion styles updated for the hip and mod 70s. Wheel turns and all that...
Do you have any youtube clips to see the edited highlights to jog memories with?
STFC was a cast reunion party in tone and plotting. It's nowhere in the same league as the 80s Kirk movies where II-IV and VI clearly have a build-up of events, which may or may not have been intentional yet it all came together surprisingly well (so parts of it were probably more accidental.)
Even Roddenberry Himself only considered TOS to be a dramatization of events and felt the TMP style was the "proper" way the Trek universe was supposed to look.
I raise you Cadbury's creme eggs and garlic naan bread as evidence perfection does exist...unless you are diabetic or have celiac's... Dammit
^^this, on all counts.
Trek is one of a handful of shows that managed to expand its format in so many directions, styles, and content. Some are more sledgehammer, but so was TOS for some of its episodes. It is about having enough elements and "more than the sum of its parts".
Plus, attempting something different - even if it's within the banner of a franchise - deserves some kudos. After all, in 1964, "Star Trek" was different and not really done before in scope or scale - and the suits hated it, citing it was "too cerebral'*. Or the second pilot in 1965, which was greenlit for a full series, after it was given more action (but still has enough intellectual brainy specs stuff, guffaw guffaw), had Majel Barret removed since they didn't like her as #1 (for which the underlying stories conflict, but TNG has episodes revolving around her and she definitely has the charisma and ability to be a lead), but kept the shouty devil-lookalike figure but toned him down via using the traits #1 had now applied to him. Add in Dr McCoy to bounce off of and The Big Three would take off like a rocket shortly thereafter.
* it feels proto-TNG, and takes the issue of sex/reproduction and uses it far more maturely than TNG episodes such as "Justice". It's not entirely unlike comparing songs, such as Jefferson Airpane's "Triad" against Britney's "3". You'll find fans of both, detractors of both, and any combination in between. The unliked album can remain on the shelf. It's that simple.
Now, I think they're supposed to wear body suits that look like us, complete with big 80s hair, in 3 mile-long spaceships, named John and Diana and such, and have come to take and eat us but not in the fun ways. Or space-faring aliens are as common as the Quagaars of Red Dwarf fame...
True. Even by TNG's time, he wanted only it to be canonical, removing TOS/TAS. (Heck, in ways, TAS feels like proto-TNG season 1 as well. Complete with equivalent to a holodeck. )
Well, but Roddenberry never was a true Roddenberrian, was he?
His nonchalance and levity about such things needlessly threatened the purity of the Roddenberrian Vision!
(/sarcasm, of course. But to draw the parallel with religion in real life again, I know of some fundamentalist Christians that declared that Jesus Christ himself was a bit too liberal for their tastes).
Gene was a visionary when he wanted to be, but damn, in other ways could he be an idiot.
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