• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Babylon 5

Regarding Cartagia...

Total nutjob, agreed. But given how Centauri society seems to be portrayed, the population seems to just go along with whatever the emperor does. Fear of reprisals is likely an issue with a good emperor... fear of a fate worse than death definitely applies to Cartagia.



Regarding Clark...

Some people are just power hungry. It's as simple as that.
 
Last edited:
It's kind of eclipsed by when we actually meet him, but we heard about Cartagia for a year and a half before he finally showed up on-screen. The upshot seemed to be that he was Refa's puppet and public face, and once Refa was dead, Cartagia took no time at all going from "uncontrolled" to "out of control."

"The Coming of Shadows" had Refa introduce him this way; "And the unfortunate death of the Prime Minister so soon after the emperor has had the effect of tilting the balance of power back home. Several competing families
have been neutralized leaving the Emperor's nephew to claim the throne. A young man who feels as we do about the future. For the first time in a hundred years, ambassador, our people are on the right track again. And we have you to thank for it. You will find the new Emperor's gratitude most rewarding."

And then in "The Long, Twilight Struggle," Refa said, "[Cartagia] is out among his people, basking in their almost-sincere adulation." And then in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark," Londo doesn't make any bones that Refa is the one telling Cartagia what to do.

It's possible Clark was a similar puppet-turned-master, given the hints that he was connected politically to the Psi-Corps. Bester's wing of the organization probably would've been happier with a Vice-President whose influence they could benefit from but who had no real power in and of himself, and their own aims were probably disrupted by the Shadows killing Santiago and giving Clark actual, unlimited power instead of remaining under their thumb.

And, come to think of it, the Shadows also orchestrated Refa's assassination. I always wondered what the deal was with that; they never seemed to get anything out of Londo un-divorcing from Morden and calling in a new favor, he didn't even to seem to need Morden's help with killing Refa, but what if the "favor" was what they wanted from Londo? Their longer-term plan was getting Cartagia off the leash so he would flail and self-destruct and plunge every nation bordering the Centauri Republic into endless quagmires, and Londo cutting Morden off and then forcing Refa to do the same was a setback. It'd be consistent with the Shadows' M.O. to have the ultimate goal of having the most irrational, id-driven people possible in positions of ultimate power in the younger races; they'd start more wars, stir up more conflict externally, and then the same thing would happen internally, as even the Vorlon-esque structures of government, military, and society had to resort to conspiracies, coups, and civil wars to defeat their own self-chosen leaders.
 
But that still doesn't explain why Clark wanted more power, assuming he had any rational reasons for it. On that note both Clark and Cartagia essentially just seemed to be nutjobs given power they never should have had, but who also held populist positions that would appeal to a distressingly large number of people.

I mean, you might as well ask why Slobodan Milošević wanted more power. Or Vladimir Putin. Or Donald Trump. Or Francisco Franco. Or...
 
I mean, you might as well ask why Slobodan Milošević wanted more power. Or Vladimir Putin. Or Donald Trump. Or Francisco Franco. Or...

I'm sure if they were fictional characters in a TV show or movie, we would ask those questions and want to know.

Babylon 5 is supposed to be this series full of deep characters with motivations and stuff, so having the major baddie of the Earth plotline be this cipher is a tad disappointing
 
I'm sure if they were fictional characters in a TV show or movie, we would ask those questions and want to know.

Babylon 5 is supposed to be this series full of deep characters with motivations and stuff, so having the major baddie of the Earth plotline be this cipher is a tad disappointing

It's not to me. I don't expect fascists to be psychologically complex, because frankly they usually aren't. Television drama does not have an obligation to paint fascists are more complex than they actually are in real life.
 
It's not to me. I don't expect fascists to be psychologically complex, because frankly they usually aren't. Television drama does not have an obligation to paint fascists are more complex than they actually are in real life.

This is why "Seats of Power" need far more regulation, power balancing, & constant monitoring / observation of all members who occupy said position.
 
I mean, you might as well ask why Slobodan Milošević wanted more power. Or Vladimir Putin. Or Donald Trump. Or Francisco Franco. Or...

I came very close to bringing up real-world examples, especially one of the ones you named, but I resisted the urge.
 
I'm sure if they were fictional characters in a TV show or movie, we would ask those questions and want to know.

Babylon 5 is supposed to be this series full of deep characters with motivations and stuff, so having the major baddie of the Earth plotline be this cipher is a tad disappointing

If I had a fast way to search the B5 script books I'd try to see whether JMS ever commented on whether he believes that fascists have motivations beyond their lust for power, or whether their lust for power is what drives their fascism.
 
Based on how he described his father in his autobiography, I think JMS would be firmly on the latter end of that dichotomy.
 
Babylon 5 is supposed to be this series full of deep characters with motivations and stuff, so having the major baddie of the Earth plotline be this cipher is a tad disappointing

Which minutes would you want to delete in order to present that point of view? Be specific. Because that's the choice that has to be made since there are limited number of minutes in a TV show.
 
Which minutes would you want to delete in order to present that point of view? Be specific. Because that's the choice that has to be made since there are limited number of minutes in a TV show.

Not having full access to the series during S4 when it mattered, I can't say.

You can't deny that B5 wussed out on some major issues though, we never even see Sheridan and Garibaldi talking after Sheridan is freed so Garibaldi could explain he was brainwashed into doing that.

Although Garibaldi being brainwashed into that was also a cop-out
 
Not having full access to the series during S4 when it mattered, I can't say.

You can't deny that B5 wussed out on some major issues though, we never even see Sheridan and Garibaldi talking after Sheridan is freed so Garibaldi could explain he was brainwashed into doing that.

Although Garibaldi being brainwashed into that was also a cop-out

JMS had to move things up more quickly in season 4 because he was unsure if B5 would have season 5. In fact, it was pretty last minute when TNT brought them on for the final season.

Besides, it's not that different than Kira and Odo moving past their problems in the closet in "YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED".
 
I'm sure if they were fictional characters in a TV show or movie, we would ask those questions and want to know.

Babylon 5 is supposed to be this series full of deep characters with motivations and stuff, so having the major baddie of the Earth plotline be this cipher is a tad disappointing
It's been a while since I watched the show, but I didn't think Clark was really even a character. Wasn't he mostly just an off screen threat for most of the storyline involving him? I didn't think he really got all that much screentime.
 
JMS had to move things up more quickly in season 4 because he was unsure if B5 would have season 5. In fact, it was pretty last minute when TNT brought them on for the final season.

Besides, it's not that different than Kira and Odo moving past their problems in the closet in "YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED".

I'm not happy about that either, or Odo having "sex" with the Female Changeling and how wishy-washy he was during the Occupation Arc.

It's been a while since I watched the show, but I didn't think Clark was really even a character. Wasn't he mostly just an off screen threat for most of the storyline involving him? I didn't think he really got all that much screentime.

He wasn't a character, he got maybe one scene with real dialog and then we don't even see him until his last scene where he commits suicide. It's implied via his "Secret Message" that he was under the control of a Keeper and his note was his way of warning people what the Keeper made him do, but it's just a theory.
 
In that case it kind of makes sense that he wouldn't have gotten development then, if he wasn't given that much screen time.
 
In that case it kind of makes sense that he wouldn't have gotten development then, if he wasn't given that much screen time.

Him being such a cipher is a point against the storyline though.

Then again, everyone who opposes the Protagonists always either realizes they were wrong and joins them or is just evil. They can't just be wrong or have valid reasons for opposing them.
 
He wasn't a character, he got maybe one scene with real dialog and then we don't even see him until his last scene where he commits suicide. It's implied via his "Secret Message" that he was under the control of a Keeper and his note was his way of warning people what the Keeper made him do, but it's just a theory.

I've been a Babylon 5 fan since 1998 and this is literally the first time I've ever heard that theory. I don't buy it. Clark was just a fascist and his turning the defense grid against Earth was a sci-fi way of literalizing Adolf Hitler's rants towards the end of the war about wanting to raze Germany for failing him.
 
I've been a Babylon 5 fan since 1998 and this is literally the first time I've ever heard that theory. I don't buy it. Clark was just a fascist and his turning the defense grid against Earth was a sci-fi way of literalizing Adolf Hitler's rants towards the end of the war about wanting to raze Germany for failing him.

Then why did he write that note and hide the "Scorched Earth" message in it? Why leave no hint so there was no way to stop him?

If he had a Keeper on him that was keeping him from outright saying what he was doing, the secret message would have been his way of circumventing that. Like Londo with being drunk to overpower his Keeper.

This is the problem with Clark, he's such a Cipher we know nothing about him.
 
Why would a genocidal megalomaniac leave a cryptic manifesto as a suicide note? Of course he wants people to understand his final, spectacular act, and, perhaps, was under a massive amount of stress, maybe popping pills, leading him to think that there’d be nothing clearer to his followers than writing “the ascension of the ordinary man” over and over again on his notepad.

I really feel like a running subplot of Clark in his bunker during the last days of the war would be a classic “why are we wasting time on this?” moment in the history of the show, especially given JMS’s antipathy for the fascist worldview and those who hold it. Might be an interesting subtitle set for that clip from “Downfall,” admittedly.

“It’s no matter. We have Sheridan, and the advanced destroyers will wipe out his renegade fleet. Earth will be united again now that only aliens stand against me.”

“Mr. President… the destroyers…”

“Sheridan’s Minbari ships intercepted the advanced destroyer group and wiped them out. The rebel EarthForce ships are still leading his fleet.”
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top