It is though, isn't it? Very much so.
As is literally being so dismissive, so, NEXPPPPPFFFFTTTTTTT
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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It is though, isn't it? Very much so.
As is literally being so dismissive, so, NEXPPPPPFFFFTTTTTTT
Because in 1966 they had to come up with different motivations for the characters than "we want to have sex".
How often in TNG did we see evidence that ANY contemporary faith exists? If The Great Bird is involved then the answer is "NONE!" That's what Bajorans (and possibly Space Native Americans) are for.
1) Jewish culture encompasses more than the religion of Judaism. There are plenty of atheist Jews.
2) It is still antisemitic to not have Jewish representation in an idealized future, even if you don't depict other faiths. All that means is that TNG is antisemitic and Islamophobic and anti-Christian and Hinduphobic and anti-Buddhist, etc.
Congratulations, you've argued that TNG is institutionally antisemitic as a result of Roddenberry's prejudice against religions.
I do think that DS9 in particular was trying to be anti-racist, and oftentimes did succeed. "Far Beyond the Stars" is still a searing indictment of American racism, particularly when you consider that it calls out racist police murders of black folk -- a form of institutional racism and brutality we all know has never gone away. But yeah, DS9 also definitely reflects the blind spots that were common to its era, particularly in terms of its lack of Latino, Indigenous, and Asian representation.
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Gul Sengosts
Guest
I think the people in Journey's End had some vague nondescript pseudo-Native American beliefs. So that the white boy could have a spiritual journey
We never do see any representation of Jewish culture or ethnicity, even in the background, despite seeing such about several caucasian characters.
Weird factoid: the actors playing Ferengi were predominantly Jewish.
Similarly with black characters: we hardly see any, and hardly ever get the same cultural background. They are whitewashed (Jordi being white wouldn't have changed a single thing, even a word in his dialogue).
When we do get some of that in DS9 with Sisko, it's a hyper-stereotype, mostly negative (he's loud, aggressive, prone to violent anger... and culturally rooted in "The South"... his dad winds up having a soul food restaurant ).
Meanwhile, most of the Klingons, which are themselves a caricature of African American stereotypes are predominantly layed by black actors, which again, are otherwise very absent in the series.
Note: I seperate "Roddenberry's vision" from anything he didn't have a direct hand in.
I also don't consider atheism the same as anti-semitism, or other religion, though I see how you get there.
Roddenberry's anti-religious view was more akin to what misanthropy is to racism . He definitely attacked religion, but all religions (Christian mostly)... the concept itself really.
TNG and DS9 can be said to have pointedly singled out Jewish faith, culture and ethnicity, as well as black.
They simply ignored pretty much everyone else... which is why Chakotay came to play his also pretty racist main role in VOY. Like with Sisko, over-compensating and entirely missing the point.
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I'm sure this will go great!
Yup. Like I said:
I'm curious, what are you looking for? I think Jewish actors were represented. (I can't and don't want to quote stats.) Are you looking for Jewish names? In a world that has supposedly moved past money, countries, and religion, what are the markers that you think would remain?
Yup. Like I said:
I suppose. I've even seen it argued (often) that this is a GOOD thing. (Not by me.)
I can't argue with the restaurant. But if Ben Sisko is a stereotype then sign me up. OTOH because of that "ethnic background" Joseph Sisko is one of the only post-TOS Star Trek characters to quote the Bible. Even hearing the word kind of set me back a bit.
They can't all play Vulcans. And captains...
I'm curious, what are you looking for? I think Jewish actors were represented. (I can't and don't want to quote stats.) Are you looking for Jewish names? In a world that has supposedly moved past money, countries, and religion, what are the markers that you think would remain?
How on Earth did we get from the Space Vikings / The Yellow Peril to African American stereotypes?!?
Certainly Sisko is written as someone who comes from African-American Southern culture. But I don't at all agree that Sisko is a negative stereotype. I don't perceive him as loud, or aggressive, or prone to violent anger. I think he struggles a bit with depression and inner anger, but to me those are things about him I relate to rather than feel mark him as in any way different from or inferior to anyone else (and I am white). To me, Sisko is a wonderful father, an empathetic politician, and an inspirational leader. I would follow Sisko to the gates of Hell and back.
I think Klingons draw upon tropes about a couple of different cultures and can bleed into being stereotypes, and I agree that the use of dark makeup and predominantly black or POC actors creates very problematic subtext. They're kind of like the Dothraki from Game of Thrones in that way. I do think there might be a way to separate them from stereotypes about specific communities, but I'm not sure how you separate the Klingons from stereotypes about generic scary brown people in Western culture (short of literally always coding Klingons as white).
Certainly, atheism is not inherently antisemitic. There are millions of atheists who believe in and work for equal rights for people of all faiths. But when a narrative explicitly depicts one particular religious community as being correct and all other religious communities as abandoning their beliefs to adopt its beliefs, well, that's a narrative of one religious community holding supremacy over others. That's not progressive, that's prejudiced.
Like, if you're presenting a future where there are no more Jews because everyone became atheists... Sorry, but that's institutionally antisemitic. You have literally created a future that is, as the Nazis would call it, Judenfrei.
I think it's worth considering that DS9's showrunner from Season Three to the end, Ira Steven Behr, is Jewish. He's talked about how he tried to redeem the Ferengi from the one-note caricatures they were in TNG; I interpret that as him trying to tame the antisemitic elements of Ferengi as characters, working to find ways to make the Ferengi more complicated and increasing audience empathy for them.
I thought Brooks actively asked for and got African and African-American culture in the show in regards to the Siskos?
Outside of Worf and Kurn how many of the major Klingon characters were played by African or African-American actors?
Gowron- Robert O'Reilly, white dude
Martok- JG Hertzler, white dude
Duras sisters- Barbara March and Gwynyth Walsh, white gals
K'Mpec- Charles Cooper, white dude.
Duras- Patrick Massett, white dude.
K'Ehleyr- Suzie Plakston, white gal
I know some of the one off Klingons were.
I thought Klingon culture was based on Samurai and Viking tropes. Samurai-Viking space bikers as the meme goes.
In addition to the Sisko's (Ben, Jake Joseph and Jennifer), DS9 had Kasidy Yates and Cal Hudson in major roles. Also Fenna/Nidell , Adult alt-Jake, All played by actors of African ancestry. Probably more, but that's off the top of my head.
ETA: Sisko's was a Creole restaurant. IIRC Creole is different than Soul Food.
Outside of Worf and Kurn how many of the major Klingon characters were played by African or African-American actors?
Gowron- Robert O'Reilly, white dude
Martok- JG Hertzler, white dude
Duras sisters- Barbara March and Gwynyth Walsh, white gals
K'Mpec- Charles Cooper, white dude.
Duras- Patrick Massett, white dude.
K'Ehleyr- Suzie Plakston, white gal
I know some of the one off Klingons were.
I thought Klingon culture was based on Samurai and Viking tropes. Samurai-Viking space bikers as the meme goes.
In addition to the Sisko's (Ben, Jake Joseph and Jennifer), DS9 had Kasidy Yates and Cal Hudson in major roles. Also Fenna/Nidell , Adult alt-Jake, All played by actors of African ancestry. Probably more, but that's off the top of my head.
ETA: Sisko's was a Creole restaurant. IIRC Creole is different than Soul Food.
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I do think that deserves consideration, yeah.
I mean, one of the basic problems with 90s-era Klingons is that the makeup design makes the white actors' skin tones look much darker than they naturally were -- it creates the impression that Klingons are supposed to be coded as generic brown people. When you combine that with stereotypes about violent Samurai or Vikings, that does tend to reinforce the image of the violent brown person that exists in Western culture. It also fits into ideas about "noble savages."
I don't think this is intentional, but I think it is fair to critique this as reflecting subconscoius racist biases from white creators.
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Gul Sengosts
Guest
The Klingons are all over the place, I don't think you can single out one group of people they represent, at least not consistently. The Kazon however are stand-ins for "urban" street gangs, and VOY took that analogy further than it should have, most overtly in Alliances.
But it doesn't have to be a specific, one-on-one analogy for them to come across as embodying Western stereotypes about brown people in general.
My initial reaction was, "there's no racism (or antisemitism) in Trek!" But the discussion here made me question that assumption, and I thank you all for that. It's been a good and interesting discussion.
I do agree the Klingons are a bit all over the place. They were initially a stand-in for the USSR, plus a touch of China and a soupcon of "savage warrior" stereotype. I think that's even winked at in Worf's adoptive parents being Russian. The various storylines with Klingon culture in TNG layered a samurai type on top. Then DIS went somewhere more alien - possibly to distance themselves from earlier stereotypes - and the shows since have straight avoided them. Whenever they pop up next, I'll be curious to see how they're portrayed.
I do agree the Klingons are a bit all over the place. They were initially a stand-in for the USSR, plus a touch of China and a soupcon of "savage warrior" stereotype. I think that's even winked at in Worf's adoptive parents being Russian. The various storylines with Klingon culture in TNG layered a samurai type on top. Then DIS went somewhere more alien - possibly to distance themselves from earlier stereotypes - and the shows since have straight avoided them. Whenever they pop up next, I'll be curious to see how they're portrayed.
I think there's definitely room for a conversation about the ways in which various ST shows have reflected racist biases common to their times of production while also acknowledging it was made by people who were trying -- and sometimes failing, but still trying -- to be anti-racist. Both things can be true.
That's a great idea. I've never considered that.
Well, they did start off as "Mongol Horde/Yellow Peril" stereotypes from a visual standpoint.
Funnily enough, and on topic, but the actor who plays Worf's adoptive dad was an Austrian born Jew, and got his start playing Tevye.
The actress who played his mother was also Jewish, So, that settles it. Worf was raised Jewish,
The actress who played his mother was also Jewish, So, that settles it. Worf was raised Jewish,
This is a fair point -- I had forgotten that the Rozhenkos were played by veterans of Jewish theatre. They're also literally the only indication we see that Jewish people might still exist in the 24th Century, though, and they do read somewhat as Jewish stereotypes.
But, yeah, I'd accept it as headcanon that the Rozhenkos are Jewish.
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