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The Gorn…

Or it could be that the producers of the new Trek shows don't care much about continuity thereby proving the new shows are not in TOS's continuity despite what the producers might claim.

I think my explanation above works just as well. However . . . .

I have enjoyed Discovery but am not crushed by its cancellation. By contrast, I really quite like SNW (I delayed in seeing it for reasons having nothing to do with the show itself), but I gave up pretty much 20 minutes into its first episode pretending that this was the same timeline/continuity as TOS. In other words, it didn't take the Gorn (who appeared in the ninth episode, if memory serves) to do that for me - it was the completely different look and feel of the ship, and from jump.

Thus proceeding without worrying about inconsistencies with TOS, I found SNW to be highly entertaining and fun. I think I watched it all in about three days.
 
I think my explanation above works just as well. However . . . .

I have enjoyed Discovery but am not crushed by its cancellation. By contrast, I really quite like SNW (I delayed in seeing it for reasons having nothing to do with the show itself), but I gave up pretty much 20 minutes into its first episode pretending that this was the same timeline/continuity as TOS. In other words, it didn't take the Gorn (who appeared in the ninth episode, if memory serves) to do that for me - it was the completely different look and feel of the ship, and from jump.

Thus proceeding without worrying about inconsistencies with TOS, I found SNW to be highly entertaining and fun. I think I watched it all in about three days.

I have also found that I can like DSC & SNW more if I treat it as its own thing rather than try to shoehorn it into TOS.
 
Thus proceeding without worrying about inconsistencies with TOS, I found SNW to be highly entertaining and fun. I think I watched it all in about three days.
I don't worry about inconsistencies either, treat as part of the same overall world and have fun.

It is surprisingly good for my blood pressure.
 
A fleet would be too obvious. As Spock notes there is only rumor and speculation around this sector.

Was that the sector Cestus III was in or was it the sector the Enterprise pursued the Gorn ship into?

Were they the same or different sectors?
 
Was that the sector Cestus III was in or was it the sector the Enterprise pursued the Gorn ship into?

Were they the same or different sectors?

"Sector" isn't mentioned in dialogue. Spock does say that the general area they've chased the Gorn into they had no information on. "No records of explorations. There are rumors of certain strange signals on subspace channels. However, none has ever been recorded...Unscientific rumors only. More like space legends."

After chasing even more and hitting Warp 8 they start to close on the Gorn and at that point the Gorn starts to veer away from the Metron system. This is where they get intercepted by the Metrons.

So we don't really know if the Gorn was leading the Enterprise towards Gorn strongholds or away from Gorn homeworlds.
 
I absolutely love Spock's line about "space legends." The creators did too, or someone probably remembered it anyway, as the concept comes up again in And the Children Shall Lead. I think there's at least one other mention of it as well but I don't specifically recall which episode(s) that might involve.
 
This could be as simple as a difference in time perception:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/psyp.14270

As mammals our heart is an odd chronometer.
Reptiles on the other hand--take their time on things.

Perhaps they go into a torpor--wake up and---"where did that come from? Let's bite it."

I myself walked over what I thought was a curled up pile of dog squeeze not once but twice---before I saw it was a curled up baby rattler.

I could have been struck the third time.
 
I don't think the Gorn were leading the Enterprise back to their own territory but more like knew about the legends and maybe a bit more about the Metron system than Spock did as they were closer together at any rate! They veered away from it knowing of the omnipotent threat the aliens there possessed perhaps? :cool:
JB
 
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The Gorn appeared to have veered away when the Metrons began scanning them and the Enterprise so it may have been a surprise for the Gorn as well. If they knew about the Metrons they would've known when to swerve away. Instead they accidentally trespassed. IMHO...
 
I sort of go back to the hornblower construct…. Ships out of contact with their home base, captains acting on their own initiative, etc.

given this, a gorn Captain finding interlopers in their area acts. They are intelligent enough to collect intel and use it when a starship unexpectedly shows up. And when they see they’re out gunned, retreat.
 
This could be as simple as a difference in time perception:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/psyp.14270

As mammals our heart is an odd chronometer.
Reptiles on the other hand--take their time on things.

Perhaps they go into a torpor--wake up and---"where did that come from? Let's bite it."

I myself walked over what I thought was a curled up pile of dog squeeze not once but twice---before I saw it was a curled up baby rattler.

I could have been struck the third time.
Lucky!

Why were you walking in what you thought was dog squeeze? Wouldn't you try to avoid it?
 
I think my explanation above works just as well. However . . . .

I have enjoyed Discovery but am not crushed by its cancellation. By contrast, I really quite like SNW (I delayed in seeing it for reasons having nothing to do with the show itself), but I gave up pretty much 20 minutes into its first episode pretending that this was the same timeline/continuity as TOS. In other words, it didn't take the Gorn (who appeared in the ninth episode, if memory serves) to do that for me - it was the completely different look and feel of the ship, and from jump.

Thus proceeding without worrying about inconsistencies with TOS, I found SNW to be highly entertaining and fun. I think I watched it all in about three days.
I agree about SNW. That is fun to watch, like you say, if you don't try to connect it with TOS continuity. I don't care as much about Discovery. I didn't know it was cancelled until your post.
 
Kirk refers to the "creature that calls itself a Gorn"---my head canon is that Kirk was only familiar with the species of Gorn seen in SNW, not the bulkier, slower species he encountered in Arena.
 
The Mirror Darkly Gorn are likely the adult version of what you saw in SNW. Arena’s type builders. I could see the “dinos” on 65 as their mounts.
 
I agree about SNW. That is fun to watch, like you say, if you don't try to connect it with TOS continuity. I don't care as much about Discovery. I didn't know it was cancelled until your post.

Yeah. And canceled means different things to different people in the TV world and fans, so I should just clarify that they decided not to make any more after S5. I think this decision was closer to ending TOS or Enterprise than it was to the preplanned stop points of DS9 and Voyager, though.
 
Kirk refers to the "creature that calls itself a Gorn"---my head canon is that Kirk was only familiar with the species of Gorn seen in SNW, not the bulkier, slower species he encountered in Arena.

Not quite - your quote would make your interpretation (and mine) a very small step indeed, but Kirk says "the creature the Metrons called a Gorn," and later tells his recorder about a "creature apparently called a Gorn." So he's relying on what the Metrons said. I still have no trouble figuring that the Gorn were a group comprising several different species.
 
In the Fan Art forum I’m presently working on a design for the Gorn ship referenced in “Arena” as part of my Unseen TOS project. I’m exploring what Matt Jefferies or Wah Chang could have designed and had constructed with the resources at hand and strictly from the perspective of what influences, both real world and fictional, they could be aware of back when the show was being produced.
Was that not the same basic approach that led to the design of the Gorn ship in TOS-R: "Arena"?

The first we learn of the Gorn, and apparently the first The Federation learns of them, is when they irradicate the Cestus 3 outpost without warning. Their justification was they saw the outpost as an intrusion into their space. But no mention of the Gorn warning Federation ships not to trespass into their territory or no prior warnings to vacate the planet first. Just sudden attack and destruction.

Why no prior warnings? Or how did the Gorn not even notice anyone intruding into their space until the outpost was already established?

From the Federation’s viewpoint no one seemed to be around to object to them establishing an outpost in that system. No wonder Kirk initially sees it as an unprovoked attack. If the Gorn are so territorial then why no advance warning the Federation they were intruding into Gorn space?
One of the most interesting things about "Arena" is the degree to which it--unintentionally--provides an early example of an alternative view of the Federation as a colonialist and imperialist power. It is written, of course, by citizens of such a power, people who were steeped in a certain historical tradition. The most englightened version of the conventional historical narrative--at least back in the 1960s--about territorial disputes like the one depicted in "Arena" held that, as you (and Kirk) say, the expanding/colonizing power only "accidentally" stumbled upon someone else's territory, that they couldn't possibly have known what they were doing. (Obviously there were much more bellicose interpretations involving manifest destiny, etc.)

But that's not really possible, is it? As you say, it seems pretty unlikely that one could construct a colony in someone else's sovereign territory without each side noticing the other. Borderline impossible, in fact. It seems much more likely that warnings were, in fact, both given and received, but were also ignored by the colonizer. There could be a variety of reasons for this, and we would need to see them actually shown or discussed onscreen to be able to speak more specifically to them.

This is a potentially interesting (and almost certainly inadvertent) side effect of what SNW is doing with the Gorn. One could very easily interpret the Gorn's actions in that show as being a form of warning to stay away--"the frontier pushing back," as Krall said in Star Trek Beyond. A nation which respected the boundaries of other sovereign powers and which did not wish to be a colonialist/imperialist power would recognize that the frontier had pushed back, and accept that it could not boldly go wherever it wanted without consequence. The Federation did not. While we of course cannot condone the Gorn's actions, we can hardly credit the Federation's insistence that the attack couldn't have been predicted.
 
Great question. One of the issues some fans had with SNW was the "retconning" of the Gorn, whereas I just saw it as a non-homogeneous race with several factions (like the Xindi), and Pike and Co. meeting a faction different to that Kirk and Crew encountered. So perhaps there was internal Gorn strife about how to address the apparent Federation threat, and the warlike elements won out or acted on their own.
I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I think it's only right that Star Trek continue to redesign alien races to make them look more alien, and would prefer that the newer designs simply be total retcons. One of Star Trek's greatest creative sins, in my view, was first acknowledging the Klingon forehead retcon in DS9 and then explaining it in ENT.

On the other hand, while I don't care about the physical redesign, I am more troubled by the cultural redesign. These Gorn don't seem to have much in common with the Gorn we saw in "Arena." As I said in my previous comment, there's a way to draw a line from the SNW Gorn, through a form of warning the Federation to stay away, to what we saw in "Arena," but it would need to be done with more intentionality than has been shown so far.
 
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