Its that kind of day and you just made me spit hot coffee through my nose.
Thanks. I think.
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x03 - "Seventeen Seconds"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Thanks. I think.
May your recovery be swiftIts that kind of day and you just made me spit hot coffee through my nose.
Thanks. I think.
That goes for Trek in general (Picard included).
Jack was brainwashed his whole life. "Oh Your dad is a danger to you and me", "Your dad rather be on a starship than changing your diaper", et al.
I hope we do learn more about the asshole behavior of some of the tng characters soon. I do suspect Geordi will be pretty angry about Picard drawing his kid into this conflict. He'll be justified.
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Well, I mean, theorectically that should go without saying, but I couldn't resist the snarky response
I will say this, and this might be due to my friend group and the way we watched Trek, but I never got that impression from TOS. If Kirk was wrong, he could be wrong. And people disagreed with that or had lots of interesting questions around it. When TNG characters are wrong it's "Out of character," "they would never do that!" or "I can't believe the writers got it so wrong." I think the closest I saw with the TOS cast was in TUC, which had people questioning the writing. But, TNG is something that gets put on a higher pedestal and I'm fascinated by it, and confused all at the same time. I don't have the same vaulted view of Picard or them. To me, their just human.
I've never liked Crusher, neither on a personal nor on a professional level - keeping his kid from Jean-Luc just seals the "how about no" deal for me regarding her. I'm not looking at this from a rose-tinted TNG perspective.
Crusher could be pretty awful on TNG already tho. Remember when she took a ship that was filled with pretty much only civilians at that point straight into a sun's corona with a shielding that hadn't even been properly tested even though Jean-Luc had explictly told her to leave the system? Or that day when she beamed an injured Mintakan aboard because "he had already seen us, why not making it worse by beaming him aboard and then using a memory-erasing technique that I'm not sure will work on Mintakans oh whoops Jean-Luc sorry that they believe you're a god now and that this might potentially mess up their entire development as a species, eh, I'm gonna glare at you for even daring to disagree with me on this one and then I'm gonna disappear for the rest of the episode and leave you to clean up the mess I initiated"... and so on and so on.
She has always had this streak where she believes that whatever she does is the right thing and anyone who disagrees is just plain wrong, especially if the person who disagrees is Jean-Luc Picard. This whole "I'm gonna keep his child away from him" angle almost seems like a logical escalation of that streak, triggered by whatever fears she had and the feeling of "I do not want to deal with Jean-Luc ever again". Doesn't change the fact that it makes her come across as absolutely awful tho, of course. I'm just saying that it isn't as out of character as it might seem, at least not if you look at some of the stunts she pulled on TNG and the general attitude she had sometimes.
Crusher could be pretty awful on TNG already tho. Remember when she took a ship that was filled with pretty much only civilians at that point straight into a sun's corona with a shielding that hadn't even been properly tested even though Jean-Luc had explictly told her to leave the system? Or that day when she beamed an injured Mintakan aboard because "he had already seen us, why not making it worse by beaming him aboard and then using a memory-erasing technique that I'm not sure will work on Mintakans oh whoops Jean-Luc sorry that they believe you're a god now and that this might potentially mess up their entire development as a species, eh, I'm gonna glare at you for even daring to disagree with me on this one and then I'm gonna disappear for the rest of the episode and leave you to clean up the mess I initiated"... and so on and so on.
She has always had this streak where she believes that whatever she does is the right thing and anyone who disagrees is just plain wrong, especially if the person who disagrees is Jean-Luc Picard. This whole "I'm gonna keep his child away from him" angle almost seems like a logical escalation of that streak, triggered by whatever fears she had and the feeling of "I do not want to deal with Jean-Luc ever again". Doesn't change the fact that it makes her come across as absolutely awful tho, of course. I'm just saying that it isn't as out of character as it might seem, at least not if you look at some of the stunts she pulled on TNG and the general attitude she had sometimes.
Do you have access to scenes we never saw. In the same conversation Beverly claims when she told Jack Jean-Luc was his father she encouraged Jack to go see him, but Jack decided not to.
To be honest, if she was saying all that - and we have zero evidence she did that in any way; that IMO would be out of character for Beverly Crusher.
I don't defend Crusher's bad choices re: Jack, but to blame her for saving someone's life? She's a doctor. Maybe Picard can morally excuse allowing people to die to keep secrets, but I think she did the right thing with the Mintakan guy. I would say Picard basically committed genocide through inaction in "Homeward" and nearly did in "Pen Pals".
Yeah, encouraged him after years of instilling fear in him. It's called parental alienation. Beverly seems to have mastered it. (as of now).
Again, where do we see Beverly EVER doing this with Jack Crusher (her son.)? It's never even alluded to in any dialogue (or flashback) on screen at all.
Does Jack even have a university degree? Since it HAS to be early 2401 (since it still predates the April anniversary of Broken Bow) and even if you have Beverly and Picard get into bed literally after Nemesis in 2379, Jack can't be older than 21. He should be in a school or just graduated from one, yet he's already been doing this frontier thing with his mother for months if not years. Sounds like he doesn't have a university education. I can't see a situation if he was raised with Picard where he'd skip that.
There no evidence of this.
Beverly doesn't have to actively do anything. As someone who myself was influenced at an impressionable age by my mother on many things, just the act that Beverly herself refuses to have ANYTHING to do with Jean-Luc speaks volumes and the kid thinks that there must be a very good reason for doing so.
All it takes is just one candle...
If you immediately know the candlelight is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
I could easily see Crusher have been trying to make Picard seem great in Jack's eyes the whole time, but by just keeping him apart, and plenty of inferences from her telling him of the past in the most neutral of ways, but also trying to not lie to him, turning him into a negative figure in his mind.
Warning: fanfic
Warning: fanfic
"Mum, why am I named Jack?"
"I was once married to a wonderful Starfleet officer named Jack. He's the father of your big brother, Wesley."
"Was he my dad, too?"
"No. I told you, Jean-Luc Picard is your father."
"Right. But... why isn't Jack my dad?"
"He died a long time before you were born."
Days/Months/Years later
"Mum, how did Jack Crusher die?"
"He was a Starfleet officer. It's a dangerous job sometimes."
"But how?"
"Well, he was ordered to do a task by his captain, but it was not safe. And he died."
"I hate this captain! Who are they? Did they die too?"
"Um... I'll tell you when you're older."
Young Jack sees the pain in his mother's eyes and feels anger.
Days/Months/Years later
"Mum, why can't I meet my big brother?"
"He's traveling, Jack. But I'm sure he'd love to meet you whenever he gets back."
"But where did he go?"
She tries to explain the whole thing in terms that make sense. How she came on the Enterprise with Wesley and the encounters with the Traveler and Wesley going to Starfleet Academy but then coming back to the ship where he met the Traveler again and left for good.
"You said my father was captain of the Enterprise."
"Yes."
"Why did he let the Traveler onboard?"
"The first time he was a guest. The other times he showed up on his own. That second time I wouldn't have survived the accident if he hadn't. He was a good person, and he's probably making sure Wesley is safe out there..."
"But my father let that guy on board in the first place! He makes bad decisions."
"It's not like that, Jack."
Jack starts to see Jean-Luc Picard as a force of pain against his mother, and a man who fails at everything, remembering his failure with the Romulan crisis. And the man who took his big brother away from him.
Days/Months/Years later
"You should meet your father. He's really a good man."
"I don't want to. If I have a father, it's Jack Crusher, who died a hero. Jean-Luc Picard is a man who lost two ships, who killed thousands of people because he sucked as captain and became a Borg, and couldn't save the Romulans and he killed Jack Crusher and he gave my brother to some weird guy."
"Jack, that is not fair."
"I read a lot about him. I even looked at some of your reports from the Enterprises. He let those people go through withdrawal on Ornara. And let the Boraalans go extinct because of that shite Prime Directive. He's either a bad, bad man or totally incompetent!"
She is feeling shame now. How did this get so out of hand? She always said good things about Jean-Luc.
"He's no father to me. I'm glad I never met him."
"I was once married to a wonderful Starfleet officer named Jack. He's the father of your big brother, Wesley."
"Was he my dad, too?"
"No. I told you, Jean-Luc Picard is your father."
"Right. But... why isn't Jack my dad?"
"He died a long time before you were born."
Days/Months/Years later
"Mum, how did Jack Crusher die?"
"He was a Starfleet officer. It's a dangerous job sometimes."
"But how?"
"Well, he was ordered to do a task by his captain, but it was not safe. And he died."
"I hate this captain! Who are they? Did they die too?"
"Um... I'll tell you when you're older."
Young Jack sees the pain in his mother's eyes and feels anger.
Days/Months/Years later
"Mum, why can't I meet my big brother?"
"He's traveling, Jack. But I'm sure he'd love to meet you whenever he gets back."
"But where did he go?"
She tries to explain the whole thing in terms that make sense. How she came on the Enterprise with Wesley and the encounters with the Traveler and Wesley going to Starfleet Academy but then coming back to the ship where he met the Traveler again and left for good.
"You said my father was captain of the Enterprise."
"Yes."
"Why did he let the Traveler onboard?"
"The first time he was a guest. The other times he showed up on his own. That second time I wouldn't have survived the accident if he hadn't. He was a good person, and he's probably making sure Wesley is safe out there..."
"But my father let that guy on board in the first place! He makes bad decisions."
"It's not like that, Jack."
Jack starts to see Jean-Luc Picard as a force of pain against his mother, and a man who fails at everything, remembering his failure with the Romulan crisis. And the man who took his big brother away from him.
Days/Months/Years later
"You should meet your father. He's really a good man."
"I don't want to. If I have a father, it's Jack Crusher, who died a hero. Jean-Luc Picard is a man who lost two ships, who killed thousands of people because he sucked as captain and became a Borg, and couldn't save the Romulans and he killed Jack Crusher and he gave my brother to some weird guy."
"Jack, that is not fair."
"I read a lot about him. I even looked at some of your reports from the Enterprises. He let those people go through withdrawal on Ornara. And let the Boraalans go extinct because of that shite Prime Directive. He's either a bad, bad man or totally incompetent!"
She is feeling shame now. How did this get so out of hand? She always said good things about Jean-Luc.
"He's no father to me. I'm glad I never met him."
Beverly raised a kid without a father because she had no choice. She HAD a choice this time and chose to cut Picard out. I don't buy it. Space is dangerous. So what? Go live in a hole somewhere. Why didn't she take Wes and go hide? Funny thing is, she's not hiding, she's letting him get in worse danger.
The best-planned intentions of parents usually fall apart quickly in the face of real-world situations.
The good ones recognize this and pivot to accommodate new scenarios.
The bad ones stay the course, come hell or high water, whose egos refuse to admit their initial plan may have been in error and in need of course correction.
I'm not at all sure that Beverly was ever a good parent. I am 100% sure that Picard never would have been.
The good ones recognize this and pivot to accommodate new scenarios.
The bad ones stay the course, come hell or high water, whose egos refuse to admit their initial plan may have been in error and in need of course correction.
I'm not at all sure that Beverly was ever a good parent. I am 100% sure that Picard never would have been.
At worst it seems that Carol Marcus just kept Jim Kirk away and wanted him as far from David as possible lest her impressionable, intelligent and hotheaded son go running off with his father aboard the Enterprise. Maybe she didn't tell him everything she knew about Kirk but she also didn't hide his existence since David is clearly aware of him in an early scene of TWOK.