The death of Kirk.
What story elements would you remove or just forget exist from canon?
- Thread starter Citiprime
- Start date
Agreed, I've been a fan since 1987, mainly due to the TOS movies and TNG, but I'm still waiting for Star Trek to evolve beyond TWOK. It can still stand as a great movie and when I'm in the mood to watch it then it's available, but I'm tired of tuning into new Star Trek and still seeing TWOK elements repeated over and over.
Really. If they were going to perma-kill a character like Kirk, they really needed to get it right. We're talking "Spock's death in Wrath of Khan". I know that death wasn't permanent, but it was good enough that it would have been a worthy exit for the character.The death of Kirk.
Could it be the Romulan head ridges?
The TNG Romulan forehead ridges are explained in Picard as being indicative of "northern" Romulans.
No. Maybe I'm thinking of another Star Trek show? (I always hated the TNG Romulans. It negates the whole premise. Especially when you have Spock walking around looking different from everyone around him yet remaining "secret".)
I'm sure I'm not thinking of Star Wars. They never change anything.
To my knowledge Picard has not created new designs of any pre-established alien races. I do remember a couple years ago a lot of people got upset when Disco introduced a "new" Ferengi design, though that one has had me scratching my head. Aside from introducing more detailed skin textures, it's basically the same old Ferengi design we've known and loved since 1987.
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The death of Kirk.
Disagree!
Kirk gave up eternity in paradise to save 230,000,000 people who will never know he even existed.
You really can’t get more heroic than that.
He may have been a hero, but he deserved a better end than being buried under a pile of rocks. I would have preferred that he live a long, happy life and find his true love. I also don't like his demotion in the original crew movies from Admiral to Captain. He deserved the honor of being known as "Admiral Kirk."Disagree!
Kirk gave up eternity in paradise to save 230,000,000 people who will never know he even existed.
You really can’t get more heroic than that.
I agree with the rocks part. He should have been brought home, and there should have been an immense and impressive goodbye, befitting his sacrifices over his lifetime.
But to me the death itself was fine. Bravery, selflessness, and honor fully intact.
It's a different job.
As much as I hate to admit it, I totally agree with you there.
Actually, I rank that right up there with Neelix getting sent to scrub deuterium manifolds in "Fair Trade"... a punishment that wasn't really a punishment. Yes, Kirk loses flag officer status. But as Spock said, it was a mistake for him to accept it in the first place. To quote him, "...commanding a starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material."
We don't know that he stayed under the rocks. For all Picard knew he was stranded on an pre-warp world (uninhabited?) and unable to contact his ship. And Kirk was starting to decompose. Maybe they moved Kirk after the rescue.
Kirk's "first" death was better. Both were selfless and heroic. But the first time there were people to mourn him. Which isn't a better death as such, but it's a more satisfying resolution for an audience.
Sulu barely being able to say "Deck 15" is one of the best parts of the whole movie.
Thank you. I didn't know the Bring Back Kirk site was still around.
Robert Silverberg's novel Hawksbill Station makes the point that it's possible to have advanced (20th century and later) technology in prehistoric times and it wouldn't necessarily be detected if it ended up being buried deeply enough due to plate tectonics and therefore inaccessible. His novel was set during the time when trilobites were still around, but the principle is the same.
And maybe the Voth just didn't have the same focus on communication/entertainment that we do and so they didn't have a bazillion satellites in orbit. How many will we still have in tens of millions of years, if they're unattended to keep them functioning and their orbits not degrading?
The real point of this episode isn't dinosaurs (though that is intriguing). It's Voyager's take on the Galileo situation (the 17th-century astronomer, not the shuttlecraft). It's the clash between religious doctrine and uncomfortable scientific facts that prove doctrine to be historically and scientifically false.
Voyager isn't the only SF show to tackle this. Even Doctor Who did it in the '70s, in The Ribos Operation (the first story in the Key to Time arc). There was a character called Binro, who tried to reveal his scientific discoveries and analyses to the people of his witchcraft/superstition-believing people and was shunned for it. The Doctor (Tom Baker) gave him encouragement and told him that some day the people would realize - and say it out loud - that "Binro was right."
Exactly. Any society more complicated than a few families living together for mutual protection and assistance needs an economy of some kind, and a way of trading with other people who aren't part of their group.
All this nonsense could have been avoided if Kirk had just said, "They're still using cash. We've got to find some." As for him telling Gillian that they don't use money in the 23rd century... how much of that money he got from selling his glasses did he have left? Presumably he gave each group of officers approximately $20-$25 of it, and told them not to splurge. They would likely have used it for transportation, as walking all over the place would have taken too much time (and gotten them even more lost). They also might have used some for food, as they spent quite a few hours wandering around before getting their tasks completed.
So it's very likely that Kirk wouldn't have had enough to pay for the pizza and beer anyway, even if he hadn't figured that "Gillian invited me, so it's up to her to pay". And not to mention that any funds he did have would have been in some sort of banking system that wouldn't exist for another 300 years.
Actually, that part was cute. It got the job done in a way that didn't involve violence.
I'm actually okay with Kirk being buried on Veridian III. I think the thought of his final resting place being a planet that was unknown to him for his entire life is the sort of thing that would appeal to his explorer's spirit.
And besides, there's like some grand memorial to him on Earth likely set up after he was presumed killed on the Enterprise B, so it's not like he's being denied anything.
Except the whole message from the TOS movies is that Kirk considers being "Captain Kirk" to be meaningful and fulfilling than being "Admiral Kirk."
At least Kirk was buried in the same reality, unlike Spock. They don't even know he's dead.
This is...
1. Star Trek.
2. The era of deepfakes.
Kirk is only dead until someone brings him back.
Just because we CAN do a thing doesn't mean we MUST do a thing.