Is Starfleet Military?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't see any particular reason not to assume Uhura was next in line for command after, say, Sulu.

 

[Jedman67]

Possibly, but it still seems like the UESF in ENT S4 suddenly has a much larger and more sophisticated infrastructure and bureaucracy than it did in S1. Three years feels like it's a little too short of a time to build up to the point of being so large you have journalists as your secret agents.

We see an Admiralty in S1. We don't see much focus on earth infrastructure until S4, so your assertion that they didn't exist prior is just speculation.
I'd hazard that whatever intelligence agencies existed in the various nations that became United Earth, some of those agencies merged or adapted to outer space, extra solar. And in all honesty, the writers probably never gave it as much thought as we're giving it here on TBBS lol.

 

[Sci]

We see an Admiralty in S1. We don't see much focus on earth infrastructure until S4, so your assertion that they didn't exist prior is just speculation.

Sure, but it's speculation informed by what early ENT presents of the infrastructure. We see, like, three admirals, and Archer. We see the Interspecies Medical Exchange handling the treatment of Kaang, and we see that the Vulcans were the ones who recovered Kaang and initiated the investigation of the Klingon/Suliban landing at Broken Bow. We learn that Enterprise NX-01 is the first warp five ship and therefore the first United Earth ship to be capable of a meaningful interstellar presence, and most of Archer's crew have not been in space. We see the NX-01 crew need Vulcan star charts to know what's in the immediate vicinity, and we see them relying on Hoshi, a person who has never been to space, because they otherwise are incapable of communicating with most aliens. All of this suggests an extremely undeveloped infrastructure. I mean, shit, they had an intelligence division but didn't even know about the existence of the Andorians before ENT S1? They had an intelligence division but couldn't even understand the languages of anyone nearby?

And in all honesty, the writers probably never gave it as much thought as we're giving it here on TBBS lol.

Yep!

 

[Commander Troi]

Yup. It's pretty amazing all the peaceful activities and supports the different branches of the military do that don't involve war. Almost like they can do a lot of different tasks.

I was thinking about this today and, having learned that fact relatively recently, I realized many of us are treating both Starfleet and RL militaries (usually the US) as monoliths. And they just aren't.

I admit my ignorance and am willing to learn if I'm wrong, but are there parts of RL militaries that are purely non-combat? Because it seems like there are parts of Starfleet that are (again, correct me if I'm wrong) and I wonder if once an organization is past a certain size, that's somewhat inevitable.

Also, Starfleet seems to have "folded" many functions into itself (usually for plot reasons ). So where here in the US, we have diplomats in the State Department, Starfleet includes the diplomatic corp.

Basically, Starfleet is just damn big.

Given the tendency in TNG era to say "everyone has perfect self-control so we let systems be open" I would imagine a course in personal responsibility would be a requisite at the Academy.

I can't help but think we'd have a generally better world if emotional self-regulation and self-knowledge were taught starting in early childhood (I know it's sucked learning it in my 50s!)

Yeah, more on that, from https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/ops/nasaonly/index.html:

The OPS (Office of Protective Services at NASA Headquarters) is the...

[...] NASA focal point for policy formulation, oversight, coordination, and management of Agency physical security, intelligence, counterintelligence, counterterrorism, emergency management, continuity of operations, fire services, National Security, communications security (COMSEC), classified information security, personnel security, identity and credential management, electronic physical access management, insider threat, and protective services training programs.​

Wow. The best part of these threads is the things I learn.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Wow. The best part of these threads is the things I learn.

Same.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't see any particular reason not to assume Uhura was next in line for command after, say, Sulu.

Catspaw says otherwise.

Assistant Chief Engineer DeSalle is quite specifically in command and giving orders including to Uhura.

Therefore, given that Uhura was on duty on the bridge before DeSalle was summoned to take command, he is ahead of her in the chain-of-command (though potentially only by one or two steps.)

 

[Winterwind]

Catspaw says otherwise.

Assistant Chief Engineer DeSalle is quite specifically in command and giving orders including to Uhura.

Therefore, given that Uhura was on duty on the bridge before DeSalle was summoned to take command, he is ahead of her in the chain-of-command (though potentially only by one or two steps.)

There is absolutely nothing in the original series or movies that indicate Uhura is in the chain of command. She was never given "the conn" and the vast majority of her screen time is simply "Hailing frequencies open, Captain".

While she may have been, and most likely was, a department head nothing ever indicated she was part of the command hierarchy.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

She did operate the Navigator's console a few times and several of the recurring characters that have done that are shown as either being in the chain of command at the time or in Chekov's case subsequently.

The only Department Head that is provably not in the chain-of-command is McCoy, while is very much inline with IRL naval and aviation practice.

 

[Winterwind]

Yes, she took the navigator's spot but only in an emergency situation as I recall. In fact, lots of random crew have leapt at the helm/nav console during emergencies. It's simply one of the most important systems when the ship is in danger.

Now, if Uhura had stayed in a command gold uniform like she was in her first two episodes (production order) and done more than say "Hailing frequencies open" or "Captain, I'm frightened" then there might be a vaild argument for her in the chain of command but she didn't. She was never once shown to be anything other than a communications officer.

And we've strayed a bit from the topic...

 

[1001001]

Now, if Uhura had stayed in a command gold uniform like she was in her first two episodes (production order) and done more than say "Hailing frequencies open" or "Captain, I'm frightened" then there might be a vaild argument for her in the chain of command but she didn't. She was never once shown to be anything other than a communications officer.

 

[Tallguy]

Oh good. I was looking for a good way to put that.

 

[Jedman67]

Sure, but it's speculation informed by what early ENT presents of the infrastructure. We see, like, three admirals, and Archer. We see the Interspecies Medical Exchange handling the treatment of Kaang, and we see that the Vulcans were the ones who recovered Kaang and initiated the investigation of the Klingon/Suliban landing at Broken Bow. We learn that Enterprise NX-01 is the first warp five ship and therefore the first United Earth ship to be capable of a meaningful interstellar presence, and most of Archer's crew have not been in space. We see the NX-01 crew need Vulcan star charts to know what's in the immediate vicinity, and we see them relying on Hoshi, a person who has never been to space, because they otherwise are incapable of communicating with most aliens. All of this suggests an extremely undeveloped infrastructure. I mean, shit, they had an intelligence division but didn't even know about the existence of the Andorians before ENT S1? They had an intelligence division but couldn't even understand the languages of anyone nearby?

Undeveloped does not mean non existent. I'd assume that initially, United Earth Intelligence (or whatever you call it ) was Solar System wide and more or less monitoring human affairs.

I think relying on Hoshi for translation and too much reliance on vulcans for understanding Extra Solar affairs made for good drama but not very realistic.

I think we're largely disagreeing on the minute details, which frankly is why i'm even here

 

[J.T.B.]

There is absolutely nothing in the original series or movies that indicate Uhura is in the chain of command.

She did operate the Navigator's console a few times and several of the recurring characters that have done that are shown as either being in the chain of command at the time or in Chekov's case subsequently.

The chain of command is who reports to whom, and everybody reports to someone, so everyone is in the chain of command. The line of command, or line of succession to command, is the order in which personnel of a command would take command as a result of a vacancy at the top. In the US Navy, only unrestricted line officers are in the line of succession on a naval vessel. Ordinarily this includes all but medical and supply officers, plus chaplains and maybe JAG on a really big ship.

Now, if Uhura had stayed in a command gold uniform like she was in her first two episodes (production order) and done more than say "Hailing frequencies open" or "Captain, I'm frightened" then there might be a vaild argument for her in the chain of command but she didn't. She was never once shown to be anything other than a communications officer.

Gold uniforms have nothing to do with it. The officers who filled in for Kirk the most in TOS wore blue and red shirts.

Naval communications (or in earlier times, signals) officers have historically been line officers. In the Royal Navy up through the world wars, the signals department was the elite of a vessel. In 1942 communications officer LCdr Bruce McCandless took command of USS San Francisco during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, and was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In 1942 communications officer LCdr Bruce McCandless took command of USS San Francisco during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, and was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions.

any relation to the astronaut?

 

[J.T.B.]

any relation to the astronaut?

Yes, his son. Astronaut Bruce McCandless II (captain, USN) got an appointment to the Naval Academy as the child of a Medal of Honor recipient.

 

[dswynne1]

My understanding that Kirk assigns whomever he wants to be in command of the Bridge, regardless of "station", though he usually assigns such a role to Helm or Navigation Officer first, then Engineering and Security second, and finally someone from Support (like the Communications Officer). Since we are shown that Uhura has worn the gold uniform, I am going to assume that she has had command training, before going onto Support (though, in the case of the TOS episode "The Deadly Years"), you can move up the ranks without command experience, just command training. Go figure.

 

[fireproof78]

There is absolutely nothing in the original series or movies that indicate Uhura is in the chain of command. She was never given "the conn" and the vast majority of her screen time is simply "Hailing frequencies open, Captain".

While she may have been, and most likely was, a department head nothing ever indicated she was part of the command hierarchy.

Either way, she could take command if placed in command. That's how a chain of command can work is if a position is assigned by a higher authority, they cannot be relieved unless by that same authority, or higher up that chain.

Secondarily, Uhura is shown to be capable of taking over the navigation station, and a part of the bridge crew. It would be odd that if the captain and other bridge officers are incapacitated that she couldn't move in and take command legally.

My understanding that Kirk assigns whomever he wants to be in command of the Bridge, regardless of "station", though he usually assigns such a role to Helm or Navigation Officer first, then Engineering and Security second, and finally someone from Support (like the Communications Officer). Since we are shown that Uhura has worn the gold uniform, I am going to assume that she has had command training, before going onto Support (though, in the case of the TOS episode "The Deadly Years"), you can move up the ranks without command experience, just command training. Go figure.

Indeed, yes, Kirk could very well do that and would only be answerable to his superiors up his chain for that action.

Need to find that quote from "Starship Troopers" about chain of command. Very illustrative of the concept.

 

[Tallguy]

That's the chain you get beaten with until you understand who's in rutting command, right?

 

[fireproof78]

That's the chain you get beaten with until you understand who's in rutting command, right?

I mean, the character in the book calls it a "slap in the face" but close enough

 

[Citiprime]

There is absolutely nothing in the original series or movies that indicate Uhura is in the chain of command. She was never given "the conn" and the vast majority of her screen time is simply "Hailing frequencies open, Captain".

While she may have been, and most likely was, a department head nothing ever indicated she was part of the command hierarchy.

I don't know about TOS, but for the movies I think The Undiscovered Country might argue otherwise.

If she was just a department head (i.e., in The Motion Picture she tells someone that "my people" are tied up at the moment, indicating she runs communications) with no place in the Enterprise's command structure, why would she be invited to a classified meeting with the "top brass" at Starfleet Command about the mission to meet Gorkon?

My guess is that Bones and Uhura are probably in the same place as Beverly and Troi, where they're somewhere in the hierarchy but closer to the bottom, where if almost everyone else is gone they can possibly take command.