Where pray tell did I say it was "all about killing people"? I said projecting power through violence. Not the same thing.
Even then; name one military that didn't kill people. Go on.
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
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Even then; name one military that didn't kill people. Go on.
You said:
And I quoted you back.
Name one Starfleet that didn't kill people.
This seems the time to make the assertion that we are all friends and that this is all in fun. And the Great Bird bless @1001001 for continuing to do what is clearly his favorite part of his job here.
The Salvation Army?
@Unionized Elf that should be in a wiki someplace. I didn't remember Lower Decks but I'm sure I laughed when it happened.
No, what it comes down to is legal status. If it is the agency of the state legally empowered to use violence in defense of the state during times of war, and if it has the legal authority to use force to compel obedience to its own internal set of laws upon its members, then it is a military.
Starfleet is the agency legally empowered to defend the state (the Federation) with violence in times of war, and Starfleet operates a system of courts-martial to use force to compel obedience to its internal system of laws (the Uniform Code) upon its members (e.g., Ro and Paris at Starfleet stockades). Ergo, Starfleet is a military.
"Project power through violence" is too broad a description to be legally meaningful. Municipal and provincial police forces are also legally empowered to project power through violence, but they are not militaries.
Technically I think they are more there to achieve military objectives in wars, it just happens that this often includes killing things. Though in modern times there has sometimes been the effort to avoid unnecessary deaths. Armies are also often employed with peace keeping or disaster relief as their primary objectives.
And even so...all that just applies to armies in the present age. It seems that by the 23rd/24th century in the Trek universe the concept of an "army" might just have expanded to include all the things Starfleet does besides acting as armed forces.
I don't think that is far fetched considering how quickly concepts can evolve and that there was there were two society-redefining events (WW3 and First Contact) between "now" and their time.
The Federation had better tech. It was able to hold its own against Cardassians and Romulans without putting out purpose-built warships. The Borg and Jem'Hadar had better tech, better numbers, and no regard for individual survival, and that mentality became far more problematic.
Lore states that when new ships like the Sovereign class were introduced, they made an effort to rectify this... the Enterprise E was smaller than the D, but it had a lot more firepower.
I allowed for some differences when I said ten Defiants... the difference in size between a Galaxy class and the Defiant is far greater. More like 50x, maybe even 100x. And given that Voyager was able to manufacture warp capable spacecraft, making a warp core can't be that difficult.
Under that definition, I would have to agree that it is. Problem is, not everyone defines a military the same way.
True. But these agencies are more used to enforce laws within a given jurisdiction. Starfleet's mission of survey and exploration ensures that it routinely operates outside Federation space.
"We're a combined service."
Exactly so.
Multiple blessings. Possibly some alcohol.
All the cases of anyone on screen saying it isn't a military were mistakes imo.
NASA + Space Force = Starfleet.
NASA + Space Force = Starfleet.
Next we'll get the NASA Seals
It's been fun recently to reread some of the old FASA Trek stuff. While some of it is significantly divergent compared to the canon of later series, other elements seem to fit fairly well. The Romulan War sort of started by accident, as the Romulans had been fighting the Klingons off and on for years and initially mistook Federation forces to be either Klingon allies or even a Klingon ruse. The war only lasted a few years but was fairly brutal, as Romulan military doctrine was based in no small part on luring enemies into traps or other confrontations where they had an advantage, then being as aggressive as possible. This was partly because the Star Empire had limited resources for expansion, and those governments that were more expansionist often tended to waste such resources even when the military was able to win significant victories. Ultimately Starfleet was able to gain more of a numerical and resource edge that made a Romulan victory less likely, and the war petered out when both groups were becoming exhausted.
Sounds about right. Ergo, Starfleet both is and is not a military organization.
I exaggerate the matter somewhat when I said it was an argument. I'll spoiler code the rest since the episode is under the six month rule.
But basically, the episode where Boimler and Mariner were staffing the Starfleet booth at the job fair on the planet of the week, one person asks them "why do you even wear uniforms since you're not a military?" To which someone else responds "they totally are a military."
Maybe it's a denial sort of thing, like being an alcoholic. They say they're totally not military, they just just fight off a Borg ship or a few Jem'Hadar every now and then, just like the alc says they just like to unwind with a beer... but the truth is evident to anyone who's been paying attention.
I can stop anytime I want to
So I got directed to this thread by @fireproof78 and while it's a bit dead I'm going to revive it a bit just to hurl my two cents in.
And shockingly its not going to be a repeat as I've not seen this point in this thread.
The closest real world version of Starfleet we have at the minute on Earth is....
The Japanese Self Defence Forces.
Has military ranks? Check. Officially all SDF personnel are civil servents in the eyes of the Japanese Law, but hold military ranks to be able to integrate with US/NATO forces when needs be.
Sleight of hands definition of its craft? Check. Defiant's a warship, lets not kid ourselves. Officially it's an "escort vessel". In the same way the Japanese have a "Through Deck Destroyer" which they're currently reinforcing the deck plating to carry F-35s for. I'm sure its because they take off vertically they'll call them "Rapid Horizontal Flight Helicopters" or something.
Conducts Scientific research? Check. This is perhaps a bit of a 60s holdover before, in our world, the military industrial complex took over production, where a lot of scientific research was legitimately done by the military in dangerous situations. Same with deep sea diving too. Which covers a good bit of the exploration too. Even today, "military diver" tends to be held in a fairly high regard.
Tends not to shoot first? Check. We see time and time again Star Fleet vessels to not shoot first or otherwise engage in unecessary gunfights. While each Starfleet vessel is technically a walking advertisement for gunboat diplomacy, it's a heavy emphasis on Diplomacy. Japanese ground forces must ask for permission and has to confirm they are definitely under fire before responding.
So no, Starlfeet isn't military. It's a Self Defence Force. This rather neatly covers most of the points raised in this thread and allows for what is basically a bunch of heavily armed civil servants to go about the galaxy doing whatever they want.
And shockingly its not going to be a repeat as I've not seen this point in this thread.
The closest real world version of Starfleet we have at the minute on Earth is....
The Japanese Self Defence Forces.
Has military ranks? Check. Officially all SDF personnel are civil servents in the eyes of the Japanese Law, but hold military ranks to be able to integrate with US/NATO forces when needs be.
Sleight of hands definition of its craft? Check. Defiant's a warship, lets not kid ourselves. Officially it's an "escort vessel". In the same way the Japanese have a "Through Deck Destroyer" which they're currently reinforcing the deck plating to carry F-35s for. I'm sure its because they take off vertically they'll call them "Rapid Horizontal Flight Helicopters" or something.
Conducts Scientific research? Check. This is perhaps a bit of a 60s holdover before, in our world, the military industrial complex took over production, where a lot of scientific research was legitimately done by the military in dangerous situations. Same with deep sea diving too. Which covers a good bit of the exploration too. Even today, "military diver" tends to be held in a fairly high regard.
Tends not to shoot first? Check. We see time and time again Star Fleet vessels to not shoot first or otherwise engage in unecessary gunfights. While each Starfleet vessel is technically a walking advertisement for gunboat diplomacy, it's a heavy emphasis on Diplomacy. Japanese ground forces must ask for permission and has to confirm they are definitely under fire before responding.
So no, Starlfeet isn't military. It's a Self Defence Force. This rather neatly covers most of the points raised in this thread and allows for what is basically a bunch of heavily armed civil servants to go about the galaxy doing whatever they want.
That's some legal wording shenangins of the highest order.
From Wikipedia: The Japanese Self-Defense Forces (Japanese: 自衛隊, Jieitai; SDF), informally also known as the Japanese Armed Forces, are the unified military forces of Japan.
Britannica: Self-Defense Force, Japan’s military after World War II.
Britannica: Self-Defense Force, Japan’s military after World War II.
But does cover the duality of Starfleet, does it not?
Perhaps in TNG but not in TOS. And, as @Tallguy notes the Japanese SDF is still treated as a military, and can be incorporated in to joint task forces if necessary. It plays legal world games around to avoid some of the restrictions left over from World War 2, but doesn't quite encompass it all.
Starfleet conducts itself like a military, save for the fact that it doesn't wish to be called a military.
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