Star Wars and faster than light travel

[Reverend]

I just retcon it as the Falcon got a big head start on its journey to Bespin when the Star Destroyer they latched onto went to hyperspace (offscreen, but implied) as part of its search pattern among nearby systems looking for the missing ship. And then Solo just detached as the fleet broke up and they limped there way into Bespin from the edge of the system, taking some time.

That's basically how I see it. Makes way more sense than the whole "back-up hyperdrive" nonsense because if they had a backup hyperdrive, they would have used it right from the off (never mind how silly it is for a ship that small to had a redundant engine.)

Of course it's Star Wars, and Star Wars wouldn't be Star Wars if things weren't more inclined towards the "looks cooler" than the "is physically possible" end of the spectrum. And I feel like I have to point this out on a near monthly basis but the IP has never been Science Fiction; it's a space fantasy fairy tale. This kind of thing only has to make just enough sense to keep the story moving.

There is a line of course. A point where even a fairytale's suspension of disbelief can be broken. For me that line was "light skipping" which is just so aggressively stupid it made my head hurt, even though I knew it'd end up with something that dumb the second they introduced the idea of jumping out of hyperspace *inside* a planetary atmosphere.

Compared to that: fudging how long Leia had to cohabitate with Han, Chewie and Threepio in the Falcon while they were sub-lighting it from Hoth to Bespin vs. how long Luke trained on Dagobah hardly seems like anything worth worrying about.

 

[fireproof78]

Neither strike me as something to worry about.

 

[Set Harth]

Jumping to hyperspace inside the atmosphere was already a thing during TCW at the latest, and with TFA we got jumping out of hyperspace inside the atmosphere ( thanks Abrams ), so from these things you already have the bookends of a lightspeed-skip. The only other issue is the ludacris speed, which can be addressed if we postulate that hyperspace speeds may have no theoretical upper limit while there is some practical limit beyond which the spacecraft becomes progressively damaged and/or eventually destroyed.

 

[fireproof78]

Given how big galaxies are hyperspace having no upper speed limit fits quite well.

Plus, you know, space fantasy. Lightspeed antics never struck me as the thing to tip me out of the suspension of disbelief.

 

[Christopher]

Plus, you know, space fantasy. Lightspeed antics never struck me as the thing to tip me out of the suspension of disbelief.

Even fantasy should be consistent with its own internal rules. If it says you need hyperspace to travel FTL, then you should need hyperspace to travel FTL. If it says only the Avatar can bend more than one element, then no one but the Avatar should bend more than one element. And so on. Fantasy is a genre, not an excuse for sloppy story construction. The fact that its rules are fanciful makes it all the more important that they hold together within themselves.

 

[Ithekro]

"Fastest hunk of junk in the Galaxy"
-Lando

Somethings are covered by that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Even fantasy should be consistent with its own internal rules. If it says you need hyperspace to travel FTL, then you should need hyperspace to travel FTL. If it says only the Avatar can bend more than one element, then no one but the Avatar should bend more than one element. And so on. Fantasy is a genre, not an excuse for sloppy story construction. The fact that its rules are fanciful makes it all the more important that they hold together within themselves.

Hard disagree.

Changing the internal rules over time does not mean sloppy story construction. The internal rules for how hyperspace operates in the Star Wars universe were not carved in stone in 1977, and any expectation that they ought to have been would be entirely unreasonable. The understanding for how hyperspace operates in the universe has changed over time, under the conceit that more and more is being revealed to us about how it operates. These extensions have often if not usually been consistent with what has come before, but not always.

In fact, it is the desire to tell certain types of previously untold stories that drives the conception of what hyperspace travel is more so than stories being constrained by hyperspace mechanics, which would be the other way around. That's because there are no hyperspace mechanics, anymore than there are codified physical laws for why starfighters maneuver in outer space like real world aircraft do in the air. Essentially, they just do. How do the maneuvering systems on the Millennium Falcon work? They work just fine. Ditto, the hyperdrive, unless it isn't.

Perhaps the most radical example of hyperspace rules changing over time is the introduction of the hyperspace lane, something that wasn't remotely implied by the OT. The existence of the hyperspace-capable space leviathans is also a pretty radical departure from anything hinted at in either the OT or the PT. But these things make stories more interesting, not sloppier. YMMV.

 

[Tuskin38]

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nd with TFA we got jumping out of hyperspace inside the atmosphere

It appeared in an very early version of ROTJ's story where the Falcon was to jump past Had Abbadon's shields, and in TPM the Queen's ship was to jump past the Trade Federation blockade into Naboo's atmosphere.

Both scenes were cut from the final script obviously.

Here's the source for ROTJ, I'm trying to find the TPM one.
https://twitter.com/PhilSzostak/status/1408469312394854403

 

[fireproof78]

Even fantasy should be consistent with its own internal rules. If it says you need hyperspace to travel FTL, then you should need hyperspace to travel FTL. If it says only the Avatar can bend more than one element, then no one but the Avatar should bend more than one element. And so on. Fantasy is a genre, not an excuse for sloppy story construction. The fact that its rules are fanciful makes it all the more important that they hold together within themselves.

But, what rules are broken?

 

[Christopher]

But, what rules are broken?

Go back and read my second sentence.

 

[Reverend]

Given how big galaxies are hyperspace having no upper speed limit fits quite well.

Plus, you know, space fantasy. Lightspeed antics never struck me as the thing to tip me out of the suspension of disbelief.

There's a fine line between asking the audience to suspend disbelief for the sake of story and tone (which is totally fair for a pulpy fantasy adventure), and asking the audience to ignore that the storytellers are trivialising the whole thing by putting a theme park rollercoaster ride into a movie. It's the lack of respect for the audience's intelligence that one usually finds in the likes of a Michael Bay movie, and it takes me right out of the scene.

As crazy and as wild as Star Wars can get, the peril and drama was always maintained. When Han flew into the asteroid field it didn't just look cool, it looked potentially lethal and it genuinely looked like they were surviving by the skin of their teeth. Compare that to the "light skipping" scene and it's night and day. It's just flashy VFX visual vomit. It's so over the top that it's rendered meaningless. There's no drama, no thrill to be had there.

This is a symptom of a larger problem with the ST; the compulsive need to one-up itself all the time, and to always go for the biggest, most dramatic spectacle over substance. The problem is that if every time any character tries something impossible and it works *every time*, then it's not impossible but super easy, barely an inconvenience! We never see the consequences of someone attempting these kinds of things and failing.

I honestly couldn't give much of a crap about what in-universe rules are or aren't broken. It's nice to have certain things grounded and follow an internal logic to maintain a sense of proportion to things, but there's always ways to edge around them in the interests of storytelling, and that's fine.
What I do give a crap about however is when a storyteller abuses the audience's trust, and displays utter contempt for it's intelligence.

The lightskipping scene is in and of itself just a symptom of that fundamental problem. The ST in general and TRoS in particular is rife with it. The Chewie fake-out, the endless dead-end character introductions, "something something something, dyad in the force!", the almost comically back-handed treatment of Rose, "I found the spy!", the nonsensical Macgiffin treasure hunt, and of course: "Somehow Palpatine returned!"
I don't know that it was deliberate, but damned if it wasn't incompetent.

Side note: for all the hew and cry and bleating about Rey being unrealistically hypercompetent, nothing even comes close to the cartoonishly plot-armoured Poe Dameron who is always impossibly awesome at all times. I swear it's like watching a road-runner cartoon, and it's a testament to Oscar Issac's charisma and acting skills that the character isn't an unlikable bore, devoid of all substance.

 

[fireproof78]

There's a fine line between asking the audience to suspend disbelief for the sake of story and tone (which is totally fair for a pulpy fantasy adventure), and asking the audience to ignore that the storytellers are trivialising the whole thing by putting a theme park rollercoaster ride into a movie. It's the lack of respect for the audience's intelligence that one usually finds in the likes of a Michael Bay movie, and it takes me right out of the scene.

Well, whatever that line is I will simply say the lightspeed skipping did not cross it for me. Mileage obviously varies.

nothing even comes close to the cartoonishly plot-armoured Poe Dameron who is always impossibly awesome at all times.

And here I will reiterate that Poe should have stayed dead.

 

[Set Harth]

The problem is that if every time any character tries something impossible and it works *every time*, then it's not impossible but super easy, barely an inconvenience!

For stunts like Han jumping right into Starkiller Base's atmosphere, the proper, old school SF way to explain such a thing would have been some kind of advancement or breakthrough in navicomputer technology. But instead we get "Han takes risks hurr durr".

The lightskipping scene is in and of itself just a symptom of that fundamental problem. The ST in general and TRoS in particular is rife with it. The Chewie fake-out, the endless dead-end character introductions, "something something something, dyad in the force!", the almost comically back-handed treatment of Rose, "I found the spy!", the nonsensical Macgiffin treasure hunt, and of course: "Somehow Palpatine returned!"

This conflates several distinct issues. Lightspeed skipping ultimately falls under the ST's general rule-of-cool rulebreaking. Sidelining Rose is nothing of the sort, and is really only a problem for people who wanted more Rose or were invested in the Rose/Finn romance. The Chewie thing, like Rey giving up the saber for one scene, is the takebacksies game the film sometimes plays. ( At least it was set up properly, in that you do see the second transport if you're looking for it, while it can be missed on a first viewing. ) Poe's dialogue was not how TROS addressed the method of Palpatine's return, and the film's sin in that case was failing to connect the dots for viewers unfamiliar with Dark Empire.

 

[Tuskin38]

But instead we get "Han takes risks hurr durr".

Which is completely inline with his character.

 

[fireproof78]

Which is completely inline with his character.

And has more of a technical explanation than Han's survival of the asteroid field.

 

[Reverend]

Well, whatever that line is I will simply say the lightspeed skipping did not cross it for me. Mileage obviously varies.

Quite wildly. Like I audibly groaned when I first saw that, and it was just the first of several times in that viewing. tRoS is the the only Star Wars movie I genuinely have trouble sitting through, which is saying a lot considering I include 'Caravan of Courage' and 'The Clone Wars Movie' in that estimation.

I think light skipping bugs me as much as it does because I actually saw it coming in a sense once TFA pulled that "jumping out inside a planetary shield" nonsense. Whenever you bend the rules, you're essentially creating a precedent that gives the next story permission to bend them a little more . . . then a little more . . . and so on and so forth until the rule is meaningless.

If you can jump from atmosphere without consequence, then why not just jump from the ground? Why bother even taking off at all? Why even use ships when they're just fancy, needlessly complicated teleport pods? You see what happens when such things are eroded? The internal logic breaks down and the story becomes meaningless.

Lucas didn't create the "you can't jump in a gravity well AND you still need precise calculations" rule out of a sense of realism. He did it to maintain a sense of drama. You need that gap from ground to hyperspace in order for characters to have credible chase scenes. For it to be credible that and baddies can block their path and prevent escape, or to make it hard to sneak in anywhere. It's not about the science it's about there being open ground around the evil sorcerer's castle that the rebel army has to cross to assault the tower and rescue the princess. It's about drama and peril.

Someone mentioned before an instance in Clone Wars where they jumped while in atmosphere; failing to include the context that it was an uncontrolled jump with a malfunctioning drive in the middle of an emergency, and the ship promptly crashed, almost killing everyone. There were very real and serious consequences that shows why this is not something you should do on purpose.

I think what offends me most is that in both instances it was both contrived and needless. There was no plot reason why it needed to happen in either instance, they just did it because they felt like it, which is shitty storytelling. The whole third act of TFA is a needlessly contrived scenario. Starkiller Base didn't need to even exist. It could have been just that one Star Destroyer from the beginning that they were rescuing Rey from. It didn't need to be a planet killing planet. It didn't need to have that crazy hyperspace move. It added nothing because it cost nothing. It's all part of that same pattern of behaviour that crippled the ST; style over substance, every time.

And here I will reiterate that Poe should have stayed dead.

I'll go one further than that; not only should Poe have stayed dead, they should have recast him with someone else and given Oscar Issac a whole other Star Wars movie to himself, because he was wasted in that role . . . and if I'm honest, that's probably true of most of the cast.

 

[Set Harth]

If you can jump from atmosphere without consequence, then why not just jump from the ground? Why bother even taking off at all? Why even use ships when they're just fancy, needlessly complicated teleport pods? You see what happens when such things are eroded? The internal logic breaks down and the story becomes meaningless.

And now for a shoutout to the movie that started it all!

 

[Tuskin38]

Someone mentioned before an instance in Clone Wars where they jumped while in atmosphere; failing to include the context that it was an uncontrolled jump with a malfunctioning drive in the middle of an emergency, and the ship promptly crashed, almost killing everyone.

The crash wasn't caused by the hyperspace jump though.
It was the damage from the attack and flying too close to a star.

Lucas didn't create the "you can't jump in a gravity well AND you still need precise calculations" rule out of a sense of realism.

Where is it said he's the one who created the rule? He even wrote similar jumps it into early versions of ROTJ and TPM.

 

[Set Harth]

From the book Adventures in Wild Space: The Snare (2016):

Lina thought quickly. ‘Not if we jump to hyperspace.’
‘When?’
‘Now!’
‘But we’re still in Thune’s atmosphere.’
‘Mistress Lina,’ CR-8R chipped in. ‘As well you know, the hyperdrive engines won’t fire within the gravitational pull of a planet. The safety protocols will activate.’
‘Not if we turn them off.’CR-8R’s head snapped around so fast, Milo thought it might explode. ‘You can’t do that!’
Lina nodded. ‘Actually, I can. When I got the main generator working. I had to by-pass the safety cut-outs. We could do the same for the jump to lightspeed, stop the computer switching the engines off. It’s simple.’
‘But highly dangerous!’ the droid added.
‘Only if we blow up.’
‘Is that possible?’ Milo asked.
‘Either that or the ship falls apart in hyperspace.’

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah safety systems was something added in with the new canon, I don't believe it existed in legends.