TMP DE: Is this a goof?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Note that this doesn't happen in any version of TMP other than the DVD (the director's edition), because it depends on a newly created CGI shot:

When Admiral Kirk's airtram shuttle is shown heading for Starfleet Command, the new shot shows the shuttle heading for a building that looks like it's about a hundred feet up from the water. But when we see this same scene from the other side - the viewpoint of those inside that same building - it's level with the water's edge (*this* part of the scene was in the original film, and is the only time we see any of this in that version. The shot from the outside was the part that's all new for the DE). Am I missing something here? Or is it a legitimate goof?

 

[cardinal biggles]

I don't remember how that shot looked in the original version of the film, but it does look like they goofed something up. The airtram facility looks like it's on about the same level as the roadway of the Golden Gate Bridge in the establishing shot, but when they switch to the interior, it looks like the entrance is only slightly higher off the ground than the tops of the bridge's concrete pilings.

 

[JNG]

Is it possible that the slope down to the water just isn't really visible due to the angle? I think perspective accounts for the relative height of the bridge, or seems to as I squint.

 

[David cgc]

It could line up if the Tram bay is near the base of the building.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It could line up if the Tram bay is near the base of the building.

It didn't look like it was. The tram bay is what I was talking about, the open area looked like it was about a hundred feet up. And it didn't look like a 'perspective' shot either. Unless it was some form of holo-disguise from the outside, but that's unlikely.

The most glaring problem is the bridge. Look at every part of the shot as it relates to the position of the bridge. Then you'll see the issue.

 

[Timo]

Umm, I must say I can't see anything wrong in that pair of pictures.

In the first one, you can see how gigantic the hangar is: what we later see from the inside is the right/bridgeside half of the centermost third of the facility.

In the second one, the camera obviously looks from a height greater than floor level. Remember the dimensions of the hangar? The angle is quite significant here, far from horizontal. So the vertical distance from pier level to water level seems easily as great as with the outside shot, if not more.

The midspan of the bridge is seen at a great distance, where (as the first picture and the preceding shots showed) the deck of the bridge arches slightly upward. There is a great span of bridge from the nearest pylon via that gigantic concrete caisson to the actual shore where the hangar lies, and the second shot seems to get that distance right. That the hangar would sit too low is just an optical illusion.

Or at least 75% of it is. There may have been some deliberate fudging to get the entire picture in view in the second shot. But that doesn't distort the physical reality too much. Perhaps just a tad.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I think Timo's right. Since the camera is a couple of stories up and angled down, it's able to see farther down the bridge support towers than it would if it were at floor level. And I'd say the floor is very clearly not near the surface of the water, given how little width of water we see between the edge of the hangar and the Marin highlands across the bay. Given that the camera angle is looking down from a height, we'd see a lot more of the bay's water if the hangar were near its surface.

Also, note the angle of the bridge's shadow on the water below. We only see about the far half of the shadow before it gets cut off by the hangar floor edge. If the floor were near the base of the towers, we'd see a whole lot more of that shadow.

Keep in mind, also, that the DE team based its new matte paintings on designs and storyboards that were done for the original film. It was only due to lack of time that the exterior shot was not included in the final film. (That lengthy closeup on the UFP logo on the floor was meant to be a temporary filler shot for the rough cut, to be replaced with the shuttle-approach shot in the final cut; but the inflexible release date required the rough cut to go to theaters and the final cut was never completed.) So it's a fair assumption that the layout of HQ seen in the new shot reflects the intentions of the original matte artists who did the interior shot in the original.

So there is no inconsistency here.

 

[RoJoHen]

I agree. I'm pretty sure it's just an issue of perspective. I don't really see a problem with either picture.

 

[Maurice]

The biggest issue is the way the air tram magically changes altitudes from shot to shot...and the way the bridge has two south towers (the one out in the channel) because they used angles from the north and pretended they were south.

I think I posted these before, but for them's who never saw 'em...

It's impossible for the brige to be lit like this as seen from the south...another dead giveway it's shot from the north. Also, the hills of the Marin headlands appear to have been flattened.

All the plates for these shots were done from the north side of the bridge, and one was flopped and altered to appear as if from the south side. But the dead giveaway is that the bridge is not symmetrical.

Specifically...
1. The north tower is right by the shoreline on the Marin side
2. The south tower stands out in the channel and has a caison around its base
3. Between the south end of the bridge and the cable anchorage an arch was built over the old Civil War era fort there

Oh, and since I live in San Francisco and have a pretty good sense of geography, I created this map to show where a lot of the locations seen in the movies are shows would actually be located.

As to how I know where Kirk's apartment is. The cyclorama seen outside his apartment window was from The Towering Inferno (you can tell because of the horizon line), which means Kirk's place is like 100 or more stories up. Based on "Inferno" this puts Kirk's pad roughly on the south side of Market Street at the start of Geary Blvd., between 2nd and 3rd Streets, more or less due south of the Transamerica Pyramid.

 

[Christopher]

Well, it's in the grand Trek tradition. The Voyage Home had Kirk and Spock walking on the San Francisco side of the bridge when they were supposedly in Sausalito. And TNG's shots of Starfleet Academy with the bridge in the background were taken from the Marin Headlands side rather than from the Presidio.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Wow...this is interesting stuff.

 

[Timo]

...Of course, given this wealth of evidence, and the lack of shots that would show the real north end of the bridge (you can't really tell from the TUC shot), we could just as well say that erosion has forced the north end to be reworked so that the north pylon now stands well apart from the shore.

Or perhaps the people maintaining or renovating the bridge just preferred the aesthetics of symmery, and changed things a bit?

In any case, it would appear that the bridge is an integral part of SF HQ. The parking lot is on one side, as is the kindergarden, to reduce noise levels. The brass works on the other side. And a taxi service, tram or moving sidewalk, or something like that, runs the length of the bridge to connect the two.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

No, that doesn't work, either, Timo, because in some shots on the various shows and movies the north and south towers are just as they are now, and other times not. It's inconsistent internally, even within those pix I posted (casion around north tower, then not, etc.). And then there's the sunlight issue...you can't shade the south side of towers like that north of the equator.

 

[erastus25]

As to how I know where Kirk's apartment is. The cyclorama seen outside his apartment window was from The Towering Inferno (you can tell because of the horizon line), which means Kirk's place is like 100 or more stories up. Based on "Inferno" this puts Kirk's pad roughly on the south side of Market Street at the start of Geary Blvd., between 2nd and 3rd Streets, more or less due south of the Transamerica Pyramid.

Does that mean the Towering Inferno is Star Trek canon???

On a serious note, I'm impressed with the amount of work you put into this. Ever thought of putting together a definitive Star Trek era map of San Fran?

 

[Maurice]

Does that mean the Towering Inferno is Star Trek canon???

Or course...The Towering Inferno is where our timelines really diverged.

On a serious note, I'm impressed with the amount of work you put into this. Ever thought of putting together a definitive Star Trek era map of San Fran?

Thanks, but I didn't have to put much work into it. I was able to eyeball most of the locations from my knowledge of the area and screenshots (since they almost always include the bridge...nice that you can see it out of every window in San Francisco ), but I don't really have an interest in going through every San Francisco shot in every TV show.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

For what it's worth, I understand, DS9Sega. I hate it when people get Seattle completely wrong.

 

[number6]

For what it's worth, I understand, DS9Sega. I hate it when people get Seattle completely wrong.

I have yet to see a major film get Boston right.

 

[Maurice]

Movies never get the geography right...especially because they're interested in stringing together dramatic shots.

In Star Trek IV they land in (supposedly) Golden Gate Park, and when the finally realize people are "still using money" they're 2/3rds of the way across the city. Took them 4.5 miles to notice a vending machine...or start figuring out where they are?

In Bullitt's famous chase scene Steve McQueen's car pops from the south end of the Mission District to the Marina green in a couple of shots, then ends up down in Daly city, 8 miles away.

Likewise, in What's Up, Doc?, a chase starts on Nob Hill, immediately jumps 4 miles out to 23rd Avenue, jumps back to the northwest corner of the city, goes through Chinatown, then heads towards the bay north, but ends in the water south of the Bay Bridge.

Geographic madness, all, but it makes for fun movies!

 

[Nebusj]

For what it's worth, I understand, DS9Sega. I hate it when people get Seattle completely wrong.

I have yet to see a major film get Boston right.

Boston still hasn't got Boston right.

 

[David cgc]

In Star Trek IV they land in (supposedly) Golden Gate Park, and when the finally realize people are "still using money" they're 2/3rds of the way across the city. Took them 4.5 miles to notice a vending machine...or start figuring out where they are?

Well, they got out of the ship when it was dark, before even the first light of dawn, and it was broad daylight and morning rush hour was starting by the time they stopped to take stock. The time gap is probably more egregious than the space gap, if only by a little.