McCoy is very annoying in TOS season three, he complains all the time
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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I actually liked the Voyager characters. As for Chakotay, he's my second favorite Voyager character after Kes.
Voyager had great chartacters and a great premise and the first three seasons were actually really good. But the show had lousy writers and producers and suffered from that.
And I must once again state how much I hate that episode. It's probably on my Top 20 list about things I hate, not only when it comes to TV shows. It was just insulting, rude and meaningless.
As for my all time Star Trek Top 3 Characters, well here they are:
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I wouldn't go so far as to say VOYAGER had lousy writers. They definitely had their hands tied by UPN and weren't given more latitude to do more things.
Having said that, the writers did drop the ball on numerous things that could easily have been taken care of.
Having said that, the writers did drop the ball on numerous things that could easily have been taken care of.
I think the writing for "Voyager" was at the same level as the writing for "Next Generation" and "Deep Space Nine" - very good but flawed. I realize many would claim that "Deep Space Nine" was the best, but I don't think it ever achieved its potential. I do think that despite their flaws, the three shows of the "Next Generation era" are my favorites of the entire Trek franchise. But "Voyager" is my personal favorite, due to the cast of characters.
I find this hard but for me I can't watch TNG in a binge session or even Voyager but anything else seems fine
As for my all time Star Trek Top 3 Characters, well here they are:
I have on multiple occasions posted what Harry Kim's career would have looked like as a DS9 character (and Nog on VOY as counter-comparison), but I can imagine Kes as well. It probably would have looked a bit like "Before and After", with her living a long and full life, marrying, having a kid, and finally passing away with her multi-species DS9 family gathered around her bedside. Only major change is I think her child would age slower.
I have to agree. Given the number of good episodes we see, it's plain that the writers were capable. So clearly there was more going on than met the eye.
And this is where TATV criticism falls apart for me.
The problem wasn’t the inclusion of Riker and Troi (and a Data voice cameo). It wasn’t that it was set on the holodeck. It wasn’t the inclusion of the Ent-D (as evidenced how everyone likes the final 30 seconds of that episode). Its not even that no one on the NX-01 got promoted in a decade and were still on the ship, or T’Pol was still wearing a catsuit, or Trip got killed off.
Its that it’s a rush job to the founding of the Federation, while simultaneously being a shoehorning in a then-decade old TNG episode, while simultaneously ignoring the story told over S4. And B&B basically had stopped listening to everyone by that point; case in point, the show’s lead - who often added input on the show over those four seasons - questioned the script before it went into production and had to go along with it because B&B didn’t want to rewrite it. And B&B were so committed to the idea of the finale being a holoprogram that they were planning to set the S3 finale on the holodeck as well if that episode was the show's series finale.
Better and tighter writing would have not only addressed all of that episode's shortcomings, it would have made better use of the material provided for that episode.
It does make sense, kind of. They are just playing mind games with the Romulans, by using the USS Enterprise as a deterrence from attack to prevent a war while bringing the cloaking device back to Federation space.
An intelligence officer recaptured will just put the Federation back at square one and possibly worsen tensions with the Romulans.
I actually liked the idea of doing that... just not as the finale.
I do have a problem with all that. Especially with Mayweather, since he was the most competent person on that ship. But in general, I've made it my head canon that Riker's holosimulation is not historically accurate... because he wanted to consult with the crew who were most associated with Archer, he inserted circa 2155 versions of them into the program, even though by 2161 they had moved on to bigger and better things. That also explains why none of them grew a beard or changed their hair.
That is definitely an issue as well.
It was a bad decision for a finale.
You are right that another glaring issue of "THESE ARE THE VOYAGES..." is the rush job to the Federation founding.
It essentially put such a rush on what Manny Coto was trying to accomplish that season that it cheapens what season 4 was doing.
Honestly, the real finale, for me, was "TERRA PRIME". Especially with Archer's speech at the end. It would have been a better and more fitting ending for the show had it stopped there.
Ending with TP would have been abrupt, but better than what we got.
Of course, the ideal solution would have been to have season 5 happen. Romulan war, Shran made a main character, and supposedly they would have spared little Elizabeth as well. I think if S5 had happened, ENT would have gone a full seven.
Of course, the ideal solution would have been to have season 5 happen. Romulan war, Shran made a main character, and supposedly they would have spared little Elizabeth as well. I think if S5 had happened, ENT would have gone a full seven.
I am with you with those three shows being the 'sweet spot' for me in the franchise.
I will disagree, however, with DS9 not ever achieving its potential. By far, DS9 characters had more growth and depth than TNG and VGR combined. DS9 had some flaws, but they were far fewer in number than their siblings.
The show that didn't live up to its potential is VOYAGER, but I fault that mostly with the interference from UPN. In several ways, the premise of the show was abandoned fairly early in its run.
The writers there clearly had good ideas, and many were executed fine. Proof of this is episodes like "EYE OF THE NEEDLE", "STATE OF FLUX", "HEROES AND DEMONS", "FACES", "DEATH WISH", "DEADLOCK", "THE THAW", "TUVIX", "DISTANT ORIGIN"... and that's just in the first three seasons.
But VOYAGER is your favorite, and that's just as valid as anyone saying any of the other shows are their favorite. (TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, ENT, DISCO, PIC, LD, PRO, SNW, and any future series.) IDIC and all that.
I am in 1,000% agreement with what I bolded in your quote.
I'm not going to lie: I don't mind "These Are the Voyages". I was there for Riker and Troi. If you're an ENT Fan, it's shit, and I can understand why you wouldn't like it. But I'm not an ENT Fan, so I don't mind it. I just wish they didn't use "Pegasus" as the basis for the framework.
I think the episode just needed a rewrite since all of the elements were already there in the finale to tell the story.
.
Start the episode off with NX-01 crew thinking Trip’s dead with no trace of his body from the explosion; meanwhile Trip’s actually alive in the 24th century with Riker and Troi on a Galaxy-class ship in the 2380s (maybe suggest that the amethyst had temporal properties and transported him to the future). And Trip is getting used to the replicator (reminding him of the one he saw back in S2 in “Dead Stop”), the holodeck (reminding him of the Xyrillian ship), engineering (reminding him of the Vissian ship), and families on starships (S1 reference). While reading up on the bios of the NX-01 crew and Federation history (like the bios and historical database in “In A Mirror, Darkly”).
From there, its a matter of adding lines to tie the finale to the events of S4, and showing general progression to the world of TOS.
A line that Federation dress code with be stricter and there will be no more form fitting uniforms, in reference to T’Pol’s uniform choices for the entire series.
A line that Mayweather and Sato were junior lieutenants by the time their tenure on the NX-01 ended. Or that they turned down transfers to Columbia that came with promotions out of loyalty to Archer, which could work as a callback to Riker’s time on the Ent-D.
A line claiming Reed’s larger than life status is tied to dealing with pirates, like the ones that boarded the ship looking for Shran. And in particular, the Orion Syndicate. (“Borderland”, “Bound”).
A line explaining what happened to the Suliban (forgotten species? On their way to the Delta Quadrant?) and Denobulans (withdrawal from the Federation before the era of Pike or Kirk? Currently reapplying for membership?) in the TNG era.
A line that the transporter is being uninstalled as the Ericksons want to work on the technology more after the recovery of Quinn. (“Daedalus”).
A line with Riker and Troi showing awareness of the Organians when Trip is talking about his experiences with them (“Observer Effect”).
A line that the Klingons closed their borders to outsiders not long after the changes to their foreheads (Klingon Augment virus arc).
A line that T’Pau, Soval, Gral, and Samuels were among the names at the Federation Charter signing and were waiting for Archer (Vulcan Reformation arc, Terra Prime arc).
A line regarding what happened to Arik Soong (could have even used a voiceover); maybe he’s a part of T’Pol’s new assignment since they are both heavily involved in science. (Augments arc).
Maybe a line how Admirals Gardner and Black along with Archer and Hernandez led the founding Federation species in a coalition against the Romulans (Romulan arc, In a Mirror, Darkly).
Rewrite the line or Shran helping with the Xindi to helping with the XIndi and the Romulans (Xindi arc, “Home”, Romulan arc).
At least on paper, this version of the finale seems richer and more complete than what was actually produced. And ties together the eras of ENT and TNG better.
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That isn't hard to do.
I don't think so. By mid or late Season Six, I found myself feeling very frustrated with DS9, aside from a few episodes. And I never really liked Season Seven . . . again, aside from a few episodes. Come to think of it, I never really liked Seasons Six and Seven of TNG. Aside from a few episodes. And I found Season Six of VOY rather boring, aside from a few episodes. I guess a few likeable episodes could never overcome my disinterest in those seasons from the TNG trifecta.
When you really look at it, you see the pure lack of effort regarding the supposed future of TATV. No one asked: "What will these characters look like in six years? What rank will they be? Will they be doing something else? Will they still need to haul MACO's? It's like they wrote a 2155 story and then just moved it ahead 6y, for the same no-reason reason as why they chopped five years off Riker's age... and since Jonathan Frakes was in his 50's by then, he was not passing for 35.
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