The hideously racist way Starfleet treated Dal

[Timofnine]

I've read the suggestions you put in place, but I also countered them with the fact that the protege's of Soong simply wouldn't have the means and probably the motivation to go around the galaxy.
Stumbling upon TW conduits (unless you know what you're looking for - like the Hansens) would be downright nigh impossible prior to 2366 unless you knew what you were looking for (let alone opening them) ... and even for the Hansens (who were actively searching for the Borg) it was difficult to find a cube (and go through a TW conduit while following it)... not to mention extremely dangerous.

If the Hansens as Xenobiologists could do it, so could other people or organisations. There is also the possibility of Borg encounters along the edge of Romulan space in the 2360’s, Romulan bases were destroyed by the Borg in this decade and the Federation was blamed at first. The El-Aurian species could also have had genetic data from the Borg after their encounter with the Collective in the 23rd century.

Also, I just don't see the protege's of Soong being able to get their hands on Vidiian, Krenim and other DQ species DNA.
The Vidians would have hunted protege's of Soong for their body parts (and were similarly advanced as the UFP and more advanced in medical science).

Krenim DNA... even VOY couldn't get its hands on a DNA sample from the Krenim. Perhaps in the original timeline when they were on friendly terms with the Zhaal... but not after the temporal reset (which involved a few lines of polite exhange over a viewscreen).

I doubt the Protege's of Soong would have been able to reach and roam the DQ in the first half to mid 24th century looking for DNA samples.

A Borg cube containing assimilated members of these Delta Quadrant species could come to the Alpha or Beta Quadrant saving any geneticist from having to travel to the Delta Quadrant in person. Borg only assimilate to enhance their biological perfection so they would have chosen quality species to become drones, including those mentioned as being a part of Dal’s genetics. Why can you not envision this idea @Deks ? Or potentially a Caretaker like entity could have brought members of different species together, maybe even the Nacene themselves? Suspiria for example would not have been the last of her kind at the time of Dal’s creation.

Plus, I already mentioned the fact that species 8472 wasn't even in the Milky Way galaxy before 2374 (and they only 'visited' briefly to fight the Borg).

But how do we know that there was not a species 8472 encounter off screen in the milky way previous to 2374? Someone could potentially have even travelled to fluidic space. Any blanks are not ‘facts’ until a writer/producer decides otherwise.

The Nacene could have transported an 8472 bio ship in to our galaxy at an earlier date. A bio ship could even have fallen through a random anomaly in to our realm at *any* point in the 24th century.

And as for acquiring Dominion DNA... depends from which species (there are multiple species as part of the Dominion seeing it’s a political organisation and not a species name).
Odo's sample may have been smuggled off world by Dr. Moira, but I suspect the Cardassians would have prevented something like this as they would want to keep any and all potential advantages to themselves.

What about all of the other Founders sent out to explore the galaxy? You did not reply to this suggestion of mine. DNA could have come from one of those 100 - it was not just Odo that was sent out as an infant.

It makes a LOT more sense that Dal was created in 2366 as a result of mixing DNA of 26 known UFP member species. The DNA samples are readily available, and the protege's of Soong could get as many as they wished and then defected from the UFP to conduct genetic experiments in seclusion resulting in Dal's creation (because otherwise, you enter into a convoluted galactic search for samples of unknown origin and species that no one - including even Protege's of Soong could have known existed prior to this time frame - and if they were scientists, they likely wouldn't be chasing unconfirmed tales of some unknown species residing thousands of LY's away... they'd work with that they already had - and UFP already had a HUGE amount of varied species who possess unique atributes to work with).

Perhaps. But why *only* UFP genetics? A geneticist would have been acting illegally, so would not have been bound to only use United Federation of Planet members DNA. A geneticists would have picked the best traits for the hybrid regardless of their species political alignment which is irrelevant. They need to keep a closer eye on the animation team in the future or make sure that they are coordinating with the writers, or vice versa. There was also a potential mix up with the Enterprise E appearing in the finale. I would like to think that this was not a mixup though.

It is also assumed that the Soong protégé was acting alone. This character could have been acting on behalf of an organisation - a hired hand to do the genetics after someone else collected the samples from around the galaxy.

There are too many unanswered questions and all that we can do is speculate until the writers show us something solid.

 

[Tallguy]

It's interesting that Star Trek seems to be rethinking this. It's come up in two new series in a row.

I haven't seen ENT and I'm only 5/7th of the way through DS9. So I'm not totally up on where Trek has stood on this in the past.

No doubt, they were jerks to Dal in PRO. They're meant to be because we're not supposed to like their decision. But what if they were nice about it? (I mean, the Tellarite doctor was a class A jerk to Jankom and that's a full Federation society, right? "All Tellarites are jerks" seems more racist because they're a species.)

Is an anti-augment policy a good one? People can say that they're just acting out of fear because of where things have gone wrong in the past. Isn't the Prime Directive also out of fear for what has gone wrong in the past?

Arguments: for and against?

Oh, and yes, it has to apply to children. "It's not their fault." Of course it's not. But the whole reason for making an offspring an augment would be that your children would have better lives somehow. If the parents (governments, hives, whatever) are punished but the children are unaffected, well then that could be seen as a worthwhile price of making your kids' lives better, yes? The Fed policy is not to make people feel bad or excluded. That's an unwanted side effect. And yes, it's an official stance of "We don't want augments to exist."

It will be interesting if Trek changes course on this given that we will have post-24th century shows where this is changed and then pre-24th century shows where it will still be conventional wisdom.

 

[ToddCam]

Maybe "17 years old" is just a casual way of describing Dal and people don't always choose every word they use for picking over by fans later.

As for Henry Gordon Jago's display, we are basing these things on symbols? Do we even know the logic of what the graphic means? As with all those Enterprise-Es, I think you can chalk it up to them just using assets without derailing budget/timeline with extremely well thought out minutia in visuals or derailing story with tedious dialogue explanations.

 

[Galaxy]

It is not racism since a unique individual is never a race.

We have similar laws in many countries that are comparable to the Federation in restricting genetic engineering on humans. It should also be noted that the more democratic a society is, the more restrictive the laws are against genetic engineering on humans. There have been attempts at creating augments before. Nazi Germany did not have the tools of genetic engineering available to them - thankfully - but they did have a breeding program where they were selectively breeding people in an attempt to create a master race.

It is a complex discussion. You can use genetic engineering to make the body more resilient to diseases, make humans more intelligent. Which in general would be a plus. However, I think one thing the Trek writers got right is superior intelligence breeds superior ambition.

In the end people would probably breed themselves for beauty though.

 

[Timofnine]

Another possibility to consider; could Janeway have lied about Dal’s augmented hybrid genetic make up to help get him in to Starfleet? Janeway could have been well aware that Dal was a hybrid of politically unaligned and potentially hostile species such as the Hirogen, Species 8472, Breen etc. and covered up these ‘darker’ genetics. Janeway could have told the tribunal deciding Dal’s fate that he was only made up of Federation member species to somewhat soften the debate on his augmentation and make him more ‘accepted’ by the panel?

 

[fireproof78]

Another possibility to consider; could Janeway have lied about Dal’s augmented hybrid genetic make up to help get him in to Starfleet? Janeway could have been well aware that Dal was a hybrid of politically unaligned and potentially hostile species such as the Hirogen, Species 8472, Breen etc. and covered up these ‘darker’ genetics. Janeway could have told the tribunal deciding Dal’s fate that he was only made up of Federation member species to somewhat soften the debate on his augmentation and make him more ‘accepted’ by the panel?

Big risk for something that is pretty quickly verifiable by the panel. Also, the first duty...something, something, truth, etc.

 

[Tuskin38]

We know he has Klingon DNA, because the ridges showed up on his forehead, and they aren't members of the Federation.

There are Klingons (and half Klingons) serving in Starfleet however.

I haven't seen ENT and I'm only 5/7th of the way through DS9. So I'm not totally up on where Trek has stood on this in the past.

DS9 was the first series to mention any sort of ban on the augmentation/genetic engineering, no other series before that mentioned it. In fact DS9 inventing it contradicts TNG IIRC.

I don't believe it's ever mentioned in Voyager, Enterprise talks about it a bit, and it's mentioned once in Discovery.

 

[Tallguy]

In fact DS9 inventing it contradicts TNG IIRC.

How so?

DS9 was the first series to mention any sort of ban on the augmentation/genetic engineering, no other series before that mentioned it.

Well, before DS9 there were only two other series (counting TOS and TAS as one) and only one of them complete. And this never came up in the movies.

 

[fireproof78]

How so?

"Unnatural Selection," in TNG Season 2 has a whole research facility based around genetic editing and modification to improve human beings. The end result is a hyperactive immune system that causes advanced aging. Thankfully the transporter fixed it.

 

[Tallguy]

"Unnatural Selection," in TNG Season 2 has a whole research facility based around genetic editing and modification to improve human beings. The end result is a hyperactive immune system that causes advanced aging. Thankfully the transporter fixed it.

Thanks. Well then, advantage: TNG! This is all retconned weirdness and we should dispense with it!

 

[fireproof78]

Thanks. Well then, advantage: TNG! This is all retconned weirdness and we should dispense with it!

Well, we have a whole thread about discussing changes to DS9. Perhaps this one that should go there. I thought it worked OK, but not great in terms of the character and his arc.

 

[Tallguy]

But it seems a "canon" point that TWO nuTrek series are making contentious.

Should it be?

 

[fireproof78]

But it seems a "canon" point that TWO nuTrek series are making contentious.

Should it be?

I mean, it's canon that it is a point of contention from DS9, so why not? Bashir's dad gets sentenced to hard labor for it. So, it has some implications within the universe that can be explored. Or it can be undone with the writ of a pen.

 

[Tuskin38]

Thanks. Well then, advantage: TNG! This is all retconned weirdness and we should dispense with it!

Every series has retcons, some even retcon themselves. It's a natural part of an evolving fictional world.

 

[Timofnine]

Every series has retcons, some even retcon themselves. It's a natural part of an evolving fictional world.

I think that they need to retcon it like in Trials and Tribble-ations with the Klingon forehead explanation, a throw away line that is also a bit of a light hearted joke. Then a future series can delve deep in to the joke and try to make it serious like in Enterprise with The Augments trilogy by that Mike Sussman.

 

[fireproof78]

Every series has retcons, some even retcon themselves. It's a natural part of an evolving fictional world.

I still wish the Klingons were part of the Federation though...

 

[Timofnine]

I still wish the Klingons were part of the Federation though...

The Klingons should actually have been equal Federation members by now in my opinion, I thought this as a kid back when I watched The Undiscovered Country, after also seeing that Worf was the first Klingon in Starfleet - these were all stepping stones to something that never materialised on screen for some reason. Perhaps the Klingons would want to join the Federation after the Dominion war, realising that they would be joining a collaborative of honourable warriors who they helped to defend the Alpha and Beta Quadrants with? The writers treat the Klingons like they should always be a separate race which can never be a part of the Federation for some reason, never being able join this union even when they are allies, but of course the Klingons can join it *one* day, and so they should! Bloodwine all around! Star Trek: Discovery probably destroyed all hope of the Klingons joining the Federation though, but that’s just how they ‘burn’ on that show. Any positive peaceful progress in the Star Trek universe is doomed to failure and disaster as Discovery has foretold and canonised.

 

[fireproof78]

Any positive peaceful progress in the Star Trek universe is doomed to failure and disaster as Discovery has foretold and canonised.

So, because of this poor event we should give up? I never understand this attitude.

The writers treat the Klingons like they should always be a separate race which can never be a part of the Federation for some reason, never being able join this union even when they are allies, but of course the Klingons can join it *one* day, and so they should! Bloodwine all around!

Gross. Also, a comic is doing another Klingon War.

 

[Deks]

The Klingons should actually have been equal Federation members by now in my opinion, I thought this as a kid back when I watched The Undiscovered Country, after also seeing that Worf was the first Klingon in Starfleet - these were all stepping stones to something that never materialised on screen for some reason. Perhaps the Klingons would want to join the Federation after the Dominion war, realising that they would be joining a collaborative of honourable warriors who they helped to defend the Alpha and Beta Quadrants with? The writers treat the Klingons like they should always be a separate race which can never be a part of the Federation for some reason, never being able join this union even when they are allies, but of course the Klingons can join it *one* day, and so they should! Bloodwine all around! Star Trek: Discovery probably destroyed all hope of the Klingons joining the Federation though, but that’s just how they ‘burn’ on that show. Any positive peaceful progress in the Star Trek universe is doomed to failure and disaster as Discovery has foretold and canonised.

Early TNG hinted at the premise that the Klingons were already Federation members, but it was demonstrated that they weren't because the movies wanted to go into a different direction.

The Klingon Empire usually spreads by conquering alien worlds (it was mentioned in DS9). This kind of ideology is incompatible with the way UFP works... hence, for the Klingons to actually join UFP, they'd really have to give up conquering of alien worlds... which is something that MIGHT happen in the future (say 25th-26th century perhaps), but in the 24th... no.

There would have to be a lot more Klingons who join SF or work on their ships willingly (and also for Klingon citizens to live in Federation space) for the Empire to see they CAN live differently (if they choose to do so). Worf paved the way I suppose, so it'll have to go from there.
But we've seen that Klingon/Human hybrids and marriages do exist in the 24th century and various UFP citizens have lived in the Empire (at least, leading up the break in the Khitomer Accords - and with the reestablishment of those Accords before the Dominion War began, I think UFP members who originally lived in the Empire have returned there).

Like I said... the prospect of Klingons joining the Federation at some point in the future is still there... I just doubt it would happen in the 24th century.
If it happens, it will probably occur by the 26th century, or possibly a bit later.

 

[Timofnine]

So, because of this poor event we should give up? I never understand this attitude.

Star Treks once positive and inspiring future is doomed to a bleak and dystopian intergalactic ‘mad max’ like post apocalyptical generic science fiction series future, Discovery season 4 has shown this. Star Trek: Picard has shown this to some extent too in the late 24th/early 25th century so maybe it was a shared intergalactic civilisational downwards spiral after humanity in particular peaked in the 24th century. We can always make a better now, and should always strive to do so regardless of what we think is coming tomorrow… we need to make the most of every day even if we know or *think* that the future may not be so bright. But when the future is seemingly written in such a bleak way as in Star Trek: Discovery, it can make people think “why even bother”? We can’t even get the writers to fix the unnatural destruction of the Romulan sun and the intergalactic doom that event caused, so I doubt that they will ever undo the burn, but why should they do so anyway? It is their show and imagination and if they want to write a depressing Star Trek dystopian future it is for them to do so. I enjoy all Star Trek, but with all due respect someone has really messed up its positive, inspiring and progressive vision in recent years, IMHO. Prodigy and Strange New Worlds are beginning to break this mold though, and hopefully Picard season 3 will too. Star Trek is not generic sci-if or fantasy or a gritty urban drama and should not be written as such, something has always made Star Trek standout from other sci-fi and I think that this has been ‘lost’ for a while. Something seems to be changing though, but what’s the point as Discovery said it is all going to ‘burn’.