Did Jennifer Lein and Jeri Ryan ever met each other?

[fireproof78]

Personally I think that they just showed the "finger" to those fans who wanted Kes back.

To what end? This is an attitude that I guess I don't quite grasp. Have people encountered showrunners who desire to give the finger to the fans? While I can understand feeling angry at an episode I struggle with feeling like the production team is trying to insult me just for liking something. Maybe I just don't have the malicious producers experience to get that point of view...

And even if it wasn't, it was still a lousy and totally unnecessary episode.

I feel this way about a lot of episodes. Unnecessary for sure. But, that doesn't make it malicious. .

 

[Bornin1980something]

I feel this way about a lot of episodes. Unnecessary for sure. But, that doesn't make it malicious. .

Maybe that's why they have shorter seasons now.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe that's why they have shorter seasons now.

I mean, that, and costs and trying to not have excruciating scheduling for your crews.

 

[Lynx]

To what end? This is an attitude that I guess I don't quite grasp. Have people encountered showrunners who desire to give the finger to the fans? While I can understand feeling angry at an episode I struggle with feeling like the production team is trying to insult me just for liking something. Maybe I just don't have the malicious producers experience to get that point of view...

I feel this way about a lot of episodes. Unnecessary for sure. But, that doesn't make it malicious. .

Honestly, I can't find any other reason for coming up with such an insulting, destructive excuse for a Star Trek episode.

There was a letter campaign going for a Kes come-back in Star Trek Voyager. No, I didn't start it but I participated in it with a nice and polite letter. I can't imagine that those in charge didn't have at least some knowledge about it.

They had two options:
1. Bring back Kes
2. Totally ignore the campaign

Obviously they went for option three: Bring back the character and totally destroy her.

Sometimes I wonder if Endgame also was a "finger" to the fans who wanted a "happy end" between Chakotay and Janeway too.

Anyway, I would really like to sit down with Berman and Braga and discuss that.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, I can't find any other reason for coming up with such an insulting, destructive excuse for a Star Trek episode.

To be perfectly blunt we as fans are too emotionally close to this to see many other way but few production teams go in to a production and say "I want to piss the fan base off." That's a completely unworkable way to create a show to be antagonistic towards the people it's your job to entertain, or face cancellation.

So, the fact that you find it "insulting, destructive" means that no matter what they say they will always be perceived as villains. More's the pity.

There was a letter campaign going for a Kes come-back in Star Trek Voyager. No, I didn't start it but I participated in it with a nice and polite letter. I can't imagine that those in charge didn't have at least some knowledge about it.

Aware of it? Maybe. So, they looked at bringing Kes back in a way that both acknowledged her history but also that maybe things didn't work out perfectly well.

Sometimes I wonder if Endgame also was a "finger" to the fans who wanted a "happy end" between Chakotay and Janeway too.

Again, probably not. Writers don't approach things from a "happily ever after" standpoint like fans do. There's no drama in happily ever after. They look at the characters, and look at dramatic potential. And then they have to work inside the constrains of a writing and filming schedule that puts a lot of pressure on them to get it done in a timely manner.

 

[Lynx]

To be perfectly blunt we as fans are too emotionally close to this to see many other way but few production teams go in to a production and say "I want to piss the fan base off." That's a completely unworkable way to create a show to be antagonistic towards the people it's your job to entertain, or face cancellation.

So, the fact that you find it "insulting, destructive" means that no matter what they say they will always be perceived as villains. More's the pity.

Aware of it? Maybe. So, they looked at bringing Kes back in a way that both acknowledged her history but also that maybe things didn't work out perfectly well.

Again, probably not. Writers don't approach things from a "happily ever after" standpoint like fans do. There's no drama in happily ever after. They look at the characters, and look at dramatic potential. And then they have to work inside the constrains of a writing and filming schedule that puts a lot of pressure on them to get it done in a timely manner.

I can see your points but sometimes I just wonder..............

As for the "Kes issue", they must have been aware of how unhappy many fans were with THAT episode. So why didn't they try to correct it?

There were people sending in suggestions about how the damage made to the characters in THAT episode could have been corrected. I myself, with some help of a semi-professional script-writer transformed a story which I've written into a script and sent it to Paramount. Another Kes fan I know came up wih a very good script.

So they must have been aware of the problem, at least I got in touch with a person there who understood the situation then.

Asfor the "Endgame issue", they must have been libving in another dimension if they didn't realize how many fans who wanted a "happy ending" between Chakotay and Janeway, after all those years of teasing those fans with it.

But there we had the same situation again!
They had two choices:
1. A "happy ending" between Chakotay and Janeway.
2. Ignore those wishes from many fans.

And once again they chose to insult the fans, this time with that ridiculous Chakotay-Seven romance!

No surprise that people might think about them "showing the finger" when the same thing happens over and over again.

Not to mention that Endgame was horrible. They couldn't even come upwith a decent homecoming for the crew.

It was like they thought: "OK, let get out of this as soon as possible and start the production of the new pre-TOS series we are planning, just to show people how TOS should have been done from the start."

Coming up with an Enterprise before Enterprise and a Captain before Pike and Kirk was actually an insult to the TOS fans too.

 

[fireproof78]

There were people sending in suggestions about how the damage made to tche characters in THAT episode could have been corrected. I myself, with some help of a semi-professional script-writer transformed a story which I've written into a script and sent it to Paramount. Another Kes fan I know came up wih a very good script.

So they must have been aware of the problem, at least I got in touch with a person there who understood the situation then.

One, this assumes they look at it as a problem. This is not necessarily the case, nor is this a black and white issue. Again, these are writers who are on a deadline who have to complete the task per the production schedule. Even if they are aware, and even if they consider it a problem, that doesn't mean that lines up with what is being expected in the production schedule.

They had two choices:
1. A "happy ending" between Chakotay and Janeway.
2. Ignore those wishes from many fans.

Again, not a black or white choice because this fails to account for what mandates they have from the studio in writing these episodes. Even if the wishes of the fans are known, that might be counter to mandates from the production team. And they can't right off the whims of the fans because, 1) their schedule won't allow for it and 2) the whims of the fans change quite often.

It isn't black or white.

No surprise that people might think about them "showing the finger" when the same thing happens over and over again.

That doesn't make it accurate. People can think that all they want but that doesn't make it so.

Coming up with an Enterprise before Enterprise and a Captain before Pike and Kirk was actually an insult to the TOS fans too.

Am a TOS fan. I was not insulted.

But, then, I don't get insulted by TV shows. If it's poorly done, then that's not an insult to me. That's just a poor job. An insult implies something personal. TV production is anything but personal.

 

[Lynx]

One, this assumes they look at it as a problem. This is not necessarily the case, nor is this a black and white issue. Again, these are writers who are on a deadline who have to complete the task per the production schedule. Even if they are aware, and even if they consider it a problem, that doesn't mean that lines up with what is being expected in the production schedule.


Again, not a black or white choice because this fails to account for what mandates they have from the studio in writing these episodes. Even if the wishes of the fans are known, that might be counter to mandates from the production team. And they can't right off the whims of the fans because, 1) their schedule won't allow for it and 2) the whims of the fans change quite often.

It isn't black or white.

That doesn't make it accurate. People can think that all they want but that doesn't make it so.

Am a TOS fan. I was not insulted.

But, then, I don't get insulted by TV shows. If it's poorly done, then that's not an insult to me. That's just a poor job. An insult implies something personal. TV production is anything but personal.

But even if a writer is on a deadline, they should at least be able to come up with something acceptable, not such a piece of s**t as that episode in season 6.

As for "what the fans want", they should at least have a "finger in the air" to feel where the wind blows. Both in "the Kes case" and in "the Endgame case" they could at least have avoided to insult as many fans as they did with the destruction of Kes and the Chakotay-Seven thing.

Not to mention that they could have come up with a real homecoming for the Voyager crew instead of that time-jumping nonsense. At least the TNG episode All Good Things had a decent ending.

As for Enterprise, I didn't feel insulted. I just found the series bad with bad stories, uninteresting characters and messing up of continuity and established Trek history. Not to mention that it was a step in the wrong direction for Star Trek.

I mean, there we have this wonderful 24th century universe with so many interesting species and loose ends to follow up. Instead they go for a pre-TOS thing which didn't even look like it was pre-TOS, more like something from another universe. The result of all this si the chaos we have today with NuTrek, Discovery and different timelines.

And sometimes I do become insulted by bad TV-series or even worse, TV-series which used to be good but have become ruined in later years.

 

[fireproof78]

As for "what the fans want", they should at least have a "finger in the air" to feel where the wind blows. Both in "the Kes case" and in "the Endgame case" they could at least have avoided to insult as many fans as they did with the destruction of Kes and the Chakotay-Seven thing.

How though? The writing process is weeks ahead of what the fans will be showing. So by the time they become aware of the wind blowing they are three or four episodes removed and already planning the next step. Again, that's why I don't get insulted. It's too impersonal a process.

And sometimes I do become insulted by bad TV-series or even worse, TV-series which used to be good but have become ruined in later years.

I use too, and then I read and spoke with people in Hollywood and doing productions. And it's just not personal enough of a process directed towards me for me to be insulted. To be insulted, in my humble estimation, means that they know me, they know what I want and like, and actively avoid it. Which, no, is not how Hollywood works. So, being insulted by a fictional work just isn't worth my energy. There are far greater things for me to put my energy in to.

Instead they go for a pre-TOS thing which didn't even look like it was pre-TOS, more like something from another universe. The result of all this si the chaos we have today with NuTrek, Discovery and different timelines.

The horror...

 

[Lynx]

How though? The writing process is weeks ahead of what the fans will be showing. So by the time they become aware of the wind blowing they are three or four episodes removed and already planning the next step. Again, that's why I don't get insulted. It's too impersonal a process.

But if a series is going for years, then they should have some knowledge about the common opinion of certain things.

I use too, and then I read and spoke with people in Hollywood and doing productions. And it's just not personal enough of a process directed towards me for me to be insulted. To be insulted, in my humble estimation, means that they know me, they know what I want and like, and actively avoid it. Which, no, is not how Hollywood works. So, being insulted by a fictional work just isn't worth my energy. There are far greater things for me to put my energy in to.

I know. But it really annoys me when a series which once was good turns into something I just don't want to watch anymore.

When i was a kid, I used to tore down the pictures of rock bands I liked from the wall in my room if they "sold out" and started to do crappy music. Fortunately there were other bands to find then. Not the same anymore when it comes to music, movies and TV series, in fact I've almost stopped watching series after NCIS took a turn to the worse sine ctere are no new good seris to watch.

The horror...

Horror? I don't know.
More a sadness over how much bad stuff which is produced today.

 

[fireproof78]

But if a series is going for years, then they should have some knowledge about the common opinion of certain things.

Again, not necessarily. Writers don't have the same perspective as a fan. They just don't. And they can't afford to throw in with a particular theory because they might be asked to undo it, or in screenwriting parlance, "kill their darlings." Writing takes on a whole different attitude than fans do.

I know. But it really annoys me when a series which once was good turns into something I just don't want to watch anymore.

When i was a kid, I used to tore down the pictures of rock bands I liked from the wall in my room if they "sold out" and started to do crappy music. Fortunately there were other bands to find then. Not the same anymore when it comes to music, movies and TV series, in fact I've almost stopped watching series after NCIS took a turn to the worse sine ctere are no new good seris to watch.

There's always something new to find. At least in my experience. TV series sucks? I move on to the next one, or an old one. Or I sit down and watch something with a family member or friend that I wouldn't otherwise watch. NCIS is no good? Oh well, I moved on to another show.

I may sound calloused but I have two options. Ignore it and rewatch the good, or move on to another preferred show. MASH is my default. Rewatched 20 times now.

Horror? I don't know.
More a sadness over how much bad stuff which is produced today.

Ok, the sadness. I'll leave you to the sadness then. I may have an "old man yelling at the skies" perspective sometimes in my preference to VHS over DVD, or older shows to newer shows, but I don't find any sadness in there not being shows out there that I don't like. One, because there are so many shows out there that I cannot keep up with them all, so inevitably I find something that is somewhat enjoyable. Two, well, I'm not a big TV series guy any more. Kind of burned out on that after being told I'm wrong by fans for so many years. So, I keep to myself, read books and watch old shows.

It works for me. Mileage will vary.

 

[Lynx]

Again, not necessarily. Writers don't have the same perspective as a fan. They just don't. And they can't afford to throw in with a particular theory because they might be asked to undo it, or in screenwriting parlance, "kill their darlings." Writing takes on a whole different attitude than fans do.

They could at least try to avoid coming up with such crap as THAT episode in season 6 of Voyager.
That episode was totally unnecessary. Why bring back a character which they had made everything to make the fans forget, just to humiliate and destroy the character? It makes no sense.

There's always something new to find. At least in my experience. TV series sucks? I move on to the next one, or an old one. Or I sit down and watch something with a family member or friend that I wouldn't otherwise watch. NCIS is no good? Oh well, I moved on to another show.

I may sound calloused but I have two options. Ignore it and rewatch the good, or move on to another preferred show. MASH is my default. Rewatched 20 times now.

Unfortunately, I haven't found any new series worth to watch since.......well, it was so long ago that I hardly rememeber. The series which I've started to watch have turned ot to be typical doom-and-gloom series and Then I've quit watching them.

NCIS was the last series I really followed. When Gibbs left, it was all over. I can't stand the new characters.

Ok, the sadness. I'll leave you to the sadness then. I may have an "old man yelling at the skies" perspective sometimes in my preference to VHS over DVD, or older shows to newer shows, but I don't find any sadness in there not being shows out there that I don't like. One, because there are so many shows out there that I cannot keep up with them all, so inevitably I find something that is somewhat enjoyable. Two, well, I'm not a big TV series guy any more. Kind of burned out on that after being told I'm wrong by fans for so many years. So, I keep to myself, read books and watch old shows.

It works for me. Mileage will vary.[/QUOTE]

As for old shows to watch, then I need functioning DVD:s. But we already have that debate in another forum.

 

[XCV330]

Fury is one of those moments where the show could have taken on a new direction but the production team just wasn't bold enough. Fury was a great way to re-introduce Kes in a new manner. How much did we really know about her? A somewhat poorly developed prop (like so many of the ensemble), Kes was getting the chance at something of a rewrite.

It would have been astounding her having her as an arc, or even a season long villain. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This was the flip-side of The Gift. It could have led to some interesting roads-not-taken, such as an episode where Neelix has to come to term with the fact he deliberately dates under-aged species, before either some kind of redemption or his death at the hands of an enraged Kes. There could have been some old-vs-new battle between Kes and Seven. The options are endless. Sadly we only got a "What it" with Fury, but though it's not a perfect episode (Voyager is a desert of those, after all), but I think for what it is, it's interesting.

 

[fireproof78]

They could at least try to avoid coming up with such crap as THAT episode in season 6 of Voyager.
That episode was totally unnecessary. Why bring back a character which they had made everything to make the fans forget, just to humiliate and destroy the character? It makes no sense.

Unnecessary to you. We have no idea what the situation was which prompted them to write it. It's easy for us to sit back and judge the episode and call it unnecessary, and crap, and even more extreme descriptions of humiliate and destroy. I doubt that they went in to it with that attitude.

As for old shows to watch, then I need functioning DVD:s. But we already have that debate in another forum.

I guess it depends on the location. I use the local library as well to access some DVDs, and friends and I do a DVD swap from time to time. I'm not a big physical media person so I network to find stuff I want to watch and swap around. Also streaming, because storage space is limited so I limit physical media purchases. I know that's not for everyone, and internet limits etc. But, I always find creative ways to find a way to enjoy something.

Plus, there's always books.

 

[Lynx]

Unnecessary to you. We have no idea what the situation was which prompted them to write it. It's easy for us to sit back and judge the episode and call it unnecessary, and crap, and even more extreme descriptions of humiliate and destroy. I doubt that they went in to it with that attitude.

Let me put it this way: If I come up with a story in which I create a character as nasty and mean as possible, then it is my purpose to have such a character in the story.

If I write a story where a main character all of a sudden is portrayed as a monster, freak and a disgusting character, then it is my purpose to make the character a monster, freak and a disgusting character.

If I bring back a beloved character who has been gone for many years and who I've done everything I can to make people forget to an episode which purpose is to make the character look like a monster, freak and a disgusting character and to be remembered as such, then it is my purpose to do so.

That's exactly what they did in that episode. They made it with that purpose. If it was to p*** off the fans of the character, well that's my theory. At least almost all fans of the character were p***ed off with that episode.

They had no benevolent intentions by doing that episode. It was all about destruction.

I guess it depends on the location. I use the local library as well to access some DVDs, and friends and I do a DVD swap from time to time. I'm not a big physical media person so I network to find stuff I want to watch and swap around. Also streaming, because storage space is limited so I limit physical media purchases. I know that's not for everyone, and internet limits etc. But, I always find creative ways to find a way to enjoy something.

Plus, there's always books.

I'm actually doing the same, but maybe with some other methods, mostly DVD collecting when it comes to series I like.

I also have a rather big book collection.

The town I live in is great in may ways. Unfortunately our library is omne of few disappointments. Their amout of DVD:s, records and books are rather........limited, to say the least.

So when it comes to series and movies I want to watch and keep for re-watching and books I really want to read and keep for re-reading, then good, old Amazon is my best friend.

 

[at Quark's]

Could it be that they simply totally miscalculated when writing Fury?

Much like TATV of Enterprise, where according to their own statements, they thought they were writing 'a valentine to the fans', not realising how those fans would come to hate that final Enterprise episode?

 

[fireproof78]

That's exactly what they did in that episode. They made it with that purpose. If it was to p*** off the fans of the character, well that's my theory. At least almost all fans of the character were p***ed off with that episode.

They had no benevolent intentions by doing that episode. It was all about destruction.

And we know this for a fact? That went in to it to p*** off fans, and everyone is p*** off so therefore the intent was to p*** off fans because the writers hate this character? I get that people feel passionately about this episode but assigning so malicious intent to the writers is something that I personally struggle with.

So when it comes to series and movies I want to watch and keep for re-watching and books I really want to read and keep for re-reading, then good, old Amazon is my best friend.

Ah, well, that's too bad about the library. That's my preferred resource, as well as book apps. In the US there is the Libbi app which works with local library systems.

Could it be that they simply totally miscalculated when writing Fury?

Much like TATV of Enterprise, where according to their own statements, they thought they were writing 'a valentine to the fans', not realising how those fans would come to hate that final Enterprise episode?

That's my tendency as well. Fans assume writers come at it with the same passionate fervor as fans do and that's just not the reality. Their approach may be more distant or more cold, in appearance, because this is a process in which they are given the basic outlines of a story, either from themes or scripts that were submitted to the production team. This idea of malice towards characters always struck me as quite odd.

 

[Lynx]

And we know this for a fact? That went in to it to p*** off fans, and everyone is p*** off so therefore the intent was to p*** off fans because the writers hate this character? I get that people feel passionately about this episode but assigning so malicious intent to the writers is something that I personally struggle with.

I can't find another reason to why they all of a sudden brings back a character which they have done everything to make us all forget, just to destroy the character in the worst possible way.

That's my tendency as well. Fans assume writers come at it with the same passionate fervor as fans do and that's just not the reality. Their approach may be more distant or more cold, in appearance, because this is a process in which they are given the basic outlines of a story, either from themes or scripts that were submitted to the production team. This idea of malice towards characters always struck me as quite odd.

But they couldn't possible believe that people would like the episode i'm referring to?
If they did that, they must be incredibly stupid. And whatever they were, they were not stupid.

 

[fireproof78]

But they couldn't possible believe that people would like the episode i'm referring to?

Writers do not always make things for people to write. They are making them to entertain first.

I can't find another reason to why they all of a sudden brings back a character which they have done everything to make us all forget, just to destroy the character in the worst possible way.

Then ask the writer. Writers think far differently that fans do, even if they are fans themselves. They can get attached to characters, but have to put that aside depending on the story being written. I mean, look at Robert and Rene Picard. Ron Moore created the characters, and later on, as a writer, he worked on a script where they burned to death. Was that malicious?

 

[Lynx]

Writers do not always make things for people to write. They are making them to entertain first.

Sorry, but that episode wasn't entertaining, only insulting.

Then ask the writer. Writers think far differently that fans do, even if they are fans themselves. They can get attached to characters, but have to put that aside depending on the story being written. I mean, look at Robert and Rene Picard. Ron Moore created the characters, and later on, as a writer, he worked on a script where they burned to death. Was that malicious?

Well, I've read some conmments from Brannon Braga and Bryan Fuller about it and there's always the same replies, such as "Oh, it didn't turn out as we wanted it to be, blah, blah, blah....."

Were they disappointed that they couldn't kill off the character as they actually planned to do or what?

However, I would really like sit down with the two of them to have a cordial conversation about it over a cup of coffee.

As for Robert and Rene Picard, they weren't main characters. They showed up in one episode and I guess that their death was supposed to affect main character Jean-Luc Picard in some way. Personally I never saw any meaning with what happened or if it had some deeper impact on Picard except for one Episode or movie.
Personally, I wouldn't have bothered to come up with that scenario.

But with Kes it was different. She had been gone for three seasons and the writers had done everything to erase any memory of her. She was never mentioned, the Hydroponics Bay was turned into some Dracula's den for Borgs, no food problem anymore and it was like she never existed. So why bring her back, only to destroy her? The events in that horrible episode had no impact at all on the ongoing Voyager storyline. Nothing in it affected future episodes (what I know, I never watched season 7 except for Endgame which was horrible).