Spoilers Why is Sarek Such a Bad Father?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The name Section 31 is literally derived from Section 31, Article 14 of the Starfleet Charter which authorizes the complete and total abandonment of any and all Starfleet regulations in a time of crisis.

And this is where I point out that the charter in question is that of the EARTH Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet (the two are not the same organization).

So even if Section 31 was justified in ENT's time, it would be null and void by the formation of the Federation.

 

[Tuskin38]

And this is where I point out that the charter in question is that of the EARTH Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet (the two are not the same organization).

So even if Section 31 was justified in ENT's time, it would be null and void by the formation of the Federation.

Section 31 probably had the same section grandfathered into the UFP Starfleet Charter.
Considering their existence in Discovery.

Doesn't Sloan also mention the charter in DS9?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Doesn't Sloan also mention the charter in DS9?

He does.

And I guess there is a certain amount of wiggle room, numerically speaking, to work out exactly WHICH Starfleet Charter (Earth or Federation) he was talking about.

Bashir says "That was 200 years ago", but relative dates like that are by definition ambiguous. Until he mentions a specific calendar year, then it can be taken either way, I suppose.

The existence of Section 31 out in the open, in DSC, would seem to suggest Sloan meant the Federation Charter; yet, since S31 also exists in ENT, it could also be the Earth Charter.

I need a drink.

 

[Tuskin38]

The existence of Section 31 out in the open, in DSC, would seem to suggest Sloan meant the Federation Charter; yet, since S31 also exists in ENT, it could also be the Earth Charter.

Why not both?

 

[fireproof78]

And this is where I point out that the charter in question is that of the EARTH Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet (the two are not the same organization).

So even if Section 31 was justified in ENT's time, it would be null and void by the formation of the Federation.

Their legitimacy is supposed to be questionable.

 

[Nyotarules]

Let's say that you have two children, both of whom wanted to be doctors, but you are told that only one of them could be accepted to medical school. You have to choose which one.. So you do choose one, and you have to LIE to the other one and tell them they were rejected - and the one you DO choose, drops out and opts for something else entirely. You'd be kind of torn up about that, wouldn't you?

That is exactly what happened with Sarek. He doesn't have anything against Starfleet, as such. And if this whole thing with Michael had never happened, I doubt he'd even have a problem with Spock joining Starfleet. The problem is Sarek had to LIE to Michael about her application to the Vulcan Expeditionary Group supposedly being rejected, and on top of that, Spock's decision to enlist in the fleet made the whole thing futile in the first place. Given this, I can understand why Sarek might be just a wee bit pissed about it.

And so blaming your son for making his own choices, makes him a poor father in this regard. Sarek does admit his logic is uncertain where his son is concerned in TSFS. Not speaking to Spock for 18 years was being spiteful, and spite is an emotion

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not speaking to Spock for 18 years was being spiteful, and spite is an emotion

Perhaps.

But Sarek isn't a kolinahr adept. He still has emotions. As does Spock.

So if they're spiteful towards each other? Hey, it happens.

 

[Nyotarules]

Perhaps.

But Sarek isn't a kolinahr adept. He still has emotions. As does Spock.

So if they're spiteful towards each other? Hey, it happens.

Based on the little said in Trek on the subject, Spock cannot force his father to pay him attention, so he probably stopped trying for his own peace of mind. I have a few toxic family members, for my own emotional and mental health I do not seek them out anymore

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Spock cannot force his father to pay him attention, so he probably stopped trying for his own peace of mind.

The reverse is probably also true.

 

[Nyotarules]

The reverse is probably also true.

Sarek chose not to speak to his son for not joining the VSA, there was no reverse

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sarek chose not to speak to his son for not joining the VSA, there was no reverse

Spock doesn't seem to be in that much of a hurry to speak to Sarek either.

 

[Nyotarules]

Spock doesn't seem to be in that much of a hurry to speak to Sarek either.

In my own experience one avoids stubborn, abusive and toxic relatives for peace of mind. If my father disowned me just for my career choices and I tried to make peace and he acted as if I did not exist, I either keep trying and attend therapy for the rest of my life or go to therapy and learn to make peace with the situation. Looks like Spock chose the latter.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I just don't see Spock as behaving any less toxic than Sarek. If Sarek's supposed to reach out (and I agree, he is), then so is Spock.

I mean, we have seen absolutely no indication that Spock was any more inclined to make peace than Sarek was. If Sarek is stubborn, so is he. They're both equally toxic. If Sarek is a bad father, Spock is also a bad son. Or perhaps, more likely, neither is true.

 

[fireproof78]

I just don't see Spock as behaving any less toxic than Sarek. If Sarek's supposed to reach out (and I agree, he is), then so is Spock.

I mean, we have seen absolutely no indication that Spock was any more inclined to make peace than Sarek was. If Sarek is stubborn, so is he. They're both equally toxic. If Sarek is a bad father, Spock is also a bad son. Or perhaps, more likely, neither is true.

Sarek basically judged and abandoned his fatherly interest due to his son's career choices. He put his values ahead of his son's interests. Sarek is in the wrong. Period.

 

[The Wormhole]

If Sarek is a bad father, Spock is also a bad son.

Yeah, no. Sarek is the parent, it's up to him to set the example he expects his children to follow. If Spock is a bad son, it's because Sarek is a bad father.

 

[Jinn]

And frankly, if someone does not want to have contact with you (and I think that's what Sarek's relationship with Spock amounts to) you are not in the wrong for respecting their wish.

 

[DonIago]

Do we know that Spock didn't make any attempt to reach out to Sarek? My recollection is that he was in contact with Amanda, so it certainly seems possible that he implied if not explicitly indicated that he'd like to be in contact with Sarek.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I just don't see Spock as behaving any less toxic than Sarek. If Sarek's supposed to reach out (and I agree, he is), then so is Spock.

I mean, we have seen absolutely no indication that Spock was any more inclined to make peace than Sarek was. If Sarek is stubborn, so is he. They're both equally toxic. If Sarek is a bad father, Spock is also a bad son. Or perhaps, more likely, neither is true.

Vulcan babies have a telepathic connection with their parents. Baby Spock would not have known the words, but he would have felt Sarek's disappointment and rejection when he said "So Human" as he held him, and would later come to fully understand what it meant, as the memory was seared into his mind into adulthood.

Then you get his schoolmates bullying him, Michael calling him a "half-breed" (while trying to push him away before running away from home because they were being targeted by Logic Extremists) and the Vulcan Science Academy diminishing him because he's half-human, all reinforcing the rejection he felt from his own father, who instead of making up for it instead chooses to shun him for decades because he wouldn't quietly comply with their racism.

Why is their an equal onus on Spock to look the other way to a lifetime of bigotry that began and continues with his own father?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Vulcan babies have a telepathic connection with their parents. Baby Spock would not have known the words, but he would have felt Sarek's disappointment and rejection when he said "So Human" as he held him, and would later come to fully understand what it meant, as the memory was seared into his mind into adulthood.

Then you get his schoolmates bullying him, Michael calling him a "half-breed" (while trying to push him away before running away from home because they were being targeted by Logic Extremists) and the Vulcan Science Academy diminishing him because he's half-human, all reinforcing the rejection he felt from his own father, who instead of making up for it instead chooses to shun him for decades because he wouldn't quietly comply with their racism.

Why is their an equal onus on Spock to look the other way to a lifetime of bigotry that began and continues with his own father?

Don’t forget Amanda’s callout of Sarek’s parenting when she takes him in, how she acknowledges outright that while she came to Vulcan for Sarek, she outright doesn’t believe he would have done the same for her, go and live on Earth, not as an ambassador, but actively among humans, give up Vulcan for Earth.

Intentional or not, Sarek’s parenting was pure Vulcan, which was always going to be at the expense of the human heritage of Spock, a child of two worlds, two cultures. And I don’t think he ever truly came to acknowledge his failing in nurturing the human side of his children.

 

[Commishsleer]

So I've finally seen the last 2 episodes of Season 2.
So Sarek and Amanda use their diplomatic immunity to get aboard the Discovery to say goodbye to Michael. Sarek says he wasn't always a great Father and gets her forgiveness. In TOS Sarek regarded himself as perfectly justified in not speaking to Spock for 13 years. Can we just say that this was in the 60s and thats what tough Dads did then? Michael tells Sarek that Spock loves him and then Sarek says it was Spock that does not want to see him which is the reverse of TOS. So Sarek is the one seeking Spock out in Discovery and it is Spock who refuses to see him? Is that true because in this very last time Sarek and Amanda will see Michael (as far as we know) it was also the last time they would see Spock too but they both sped away without seeing him to "respect" Spock's wishes. I kept thinking if Spock were my son, I'd be devastated if I were never to see him again. My son has gone back home to a different state and I'm unhappy but then again I'm not a tough Vulcan.