• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Which 23rd Century is canon?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I didn't mean you specifically. But in general that scene is lampooned to hell and back by many people, and I don't really see a reason to treat it as the worst scene in a season that was constructed out of awkward scenes and bad dialogue.
Ah, well, sorry for that.

I think it is dismissed because it basically treats addiction as a strange and mysterious thing from Wesley's point of view, and his default is to ask Data? It comes across as very strange. Not saying it's better or worse than early TNG but just that as a scene goes it lands oddly especially in a supposedly more enlightened and educated future.
 
Ah, well, sorry for that.

Same here if I made you think I was criticizing you specifically


I think it is dismissed because it basically treats addiction as a strange and mysterious thing from Wesley's point of view, and his default is to ask Data? It comes across as very strange. Not saying it's better or worse than early TNG but just that as a scene goes it lands oddly especially in a supposedly more enlightened and educated future.

I just don't see it. Wesley is a very sheltered boy in a society where many of the reasons for drug addiction have been eradicated and grew up among Starfleet officers.
Plus Data seems to have a knowledge database that covers most topics so asking him seems sensible.
Yes he could have just looked up the specifics of addiction on the computer, but that's true for many pieces of dialogue in Star Trek and is, in my opinion less egregious than Loud as a Whisper where apparently nobody knew that famous diplomat Riva was mute and communicated via mind-link chorus and the mission briefing also failed to mention that.

Edit: Looking at the scene again, the one thing they should have changed is Tasha smiling nonchalantly as she says she hopes Wesley will never understand addiction. That ought to have called for a more wistful delivery, especially since it seems she was talking from personal experience when she described how drugs worked and how they can lead to addiction (personal experience as in she herself experiencing a grade of addiction while she still lived on her world)
 
Last edited:
Huh. I thought Unification III was just a bunch of self-serving crap for Burnham (i.e. the whole 'Spock would never have been the great man he was without you, Michael' nonsense.)
Yeah, the episode was pretty bad. But the ideas behind the reunification were great. As often is with Discovery, they have some real potentially fantastic ideas that they totally botch in the realisation (see adira, for example, which is a character that could go in an incredibly number of direction but instead has been barely there once they found Starfleet).
An episode in season six of VOY where a main character which was dumped for dubious reasons in season 4 was brought back only to be humiliated and destroyed.
ah, yes, that was pretty bad.

I consider it ruining when two important species in the Star Trek history is squashed together in some half-a**ed, light-beer version of the previous species, especially the way it was done.
there is no “some half-a**ed, light-beer version of the previous species”: the Vulcans are still the Vulcans and the romulans are still the romulans, but they now share home planet again. And of course living together brought to life a third group: people with parents from both.

If they had omitted the destruction of Romulus, I would have had at least some understanding for it.
i don’t think when the reunification was completed, but it started decades before the destruction of Romulus and for sure was brought to term way later. Destroying Romulus happened in Star Trek 2009 and had nothing to do with the reunification.

I can accept changes. But not bad changes. If I just sat down and accepted bad changes, I would be a coward and couldn't even look in a mirror. That's not me. I fight!
Good luck “fighting” against paramount.

Are they. I hot the impression from commente here that they and the Vulcans have become something in-between what they used to be
no.

So all of a sudden, DSC is set in the 32nd century? Oh dear!
no, they time traveled.

When it comes to the Romulan-Vulcan reunification, what I don't like is the destruction of Romulus and that it was set in the 23th century (correct me if I'm wrong)
wrong. It happened in the late 24th, way after the last tng movie.

plus the fact that the forced unification will result in two great species done and the merger will result in some weak combination of both species.
it hasn’t. And hybrids are usually stronger anyway, not weaker, as Spock used to point out in TOS.

If it had been a peaceful reunification, like the one Spock was working for in TNG, I may have accepted it.
It’s literally the same one.
I think it can be both. For example, I think the special effects are dated - they could have been made more convincing with modern technology. That doesn't mean that it isn't a great horror movie.
what can I say? I didn’t particularly enjoy it in my last rewatch.
 
Meanwhile, only DISCO is set in the 32nd century, so we can still use old-school Vulcans and Romulans on PICARD, SNW, LOWER DECKS, PRODIGY
and romulans just showed up on Prodigy appearing VERY romulan.

What I mean by that is, it's still time-travel shenanigans. Everything that's happened in season 3, 4 and soon 5 is pretty neatly encapsulated. Should future writers decide they don't want to utilize that particular future, it certainly wouldn't be hard, narratively, to conveniently hand-wave it away
that’s quite true: discovery could theoretically still go back in time say in season 7 and change everything.
Still, I don’t think they’ll do that and honestly the 32nd century is far enough from the other series they can pretty much ignore what happens on discovery anyway.

Although the only TOS films that came out during TNG were 5 and 6. But if they'd decided to just ignore what was happening in the struggling TV show with barely any connection to the original series, well, they could have
well, that’s what they did. Especially TUC adds Klingon backstory that doesn’t seem to be present in early TNG.
 
As requested, correcting you. Romulus was destroyed in the 24th century in the Prime timeline. Perhaps you're confusing it with Vulcan being destroyed in the 23rd century in the Kelvin timeline?

And DISCO isn't suddenly in the 32nd century for no reason. There was a whole time-travel plotline explaining how the ship and its crew ended up in the far future.

My handy-dandy cheat sheet:

Prime universe: Romulus is toast in the 24th century, years after NEMESIS.

Kelvin universe: Vulcan is toast in the 23rd century. :)
Thanks for information.

Well, that settles all. There will be no Vulcans and no Romulans in future 24th century Star Trek books or movies.
Instead we have to stand the lukewarm, light-beer watered-down Romulcans.

And just when I had discovered Una McCormacks excellent books about Cardassia and Garak who is one of my favorites. :weep:

The risk is obvious that the Romulcans will show up there too.

No more book-buying then! If I want to read good Star Trek stories, then I have to write them myself.

Or re-read the excellent book The Black Shore for the umpteenth time, at least more exciting than to watch Discovery.

And all that because of the crappy boring Discovery with its bad characters and stupid producers! :mad:
 
So you're commenting on something you only have second hand knowledge of?

The only thing I can do since I don't want to watch it. But I still find the destruction of Romulus stupid and unnecessary.

There is no time travel involved in Sherlock or Elementary. Both versions of Holmes were born and raised in the 2oth/21st Century. Though there is a cool "dream"" episode of Sherlock that takes place in the the 19th Century. Again, you seem to be commenting on things you have no first hand knowledge of.

So now "Sherlock" was born born in the 20th/21st century. What happened to the Sherlock in the 19 century then?

Not sure if you lived through the 60's or where you lived if you did. But in my country, young men were being drafted to fight and die in an immoral war in a foreign country. Some fled the country to avoid service. Others protested against the war and were beaten, assaulted, arrested and killed for doing so. Others marched in support of equal rights and were also beaten, arrested and killed, often by those in charge of "keeping the peace". Our leaders were assassinated. And the man at the top compiled an "enemies list" and used the power of the government to strike at them Not mention the crimes he committed in the next decade. It was a violent decade marked by a sharp divide between young and old, black and white and left and right So take off the rose colored glasses and maybe take a history class or two
Star Trek took an anvil to the head approach to social commentary. It was rarely well done.
Well, when it comes to the war, why don't you blame the North Vietnamese who started it?
However, I actually agree with you on most of what you have written above. Still, the 60's was a happy decade for many people back then.
A lot mor funny, entertaining and hopeful than the dystopian 2020's.

oh, wait, no. Actually, ENT gives us a genetic engineering solution to that. So, that explains all variants of Klingons. So, not horrible at all. Just another variation that looks closer to TMP style than anything else.
But nothing in ENT explains the "Turtles".

Here's the thing. They were totally different from TOS too. Why isn't that an issue? Why is the 24th century the gold standard for behavior? Culturals change and shift and adapt to new behaviors, especially after a horrific event or catastrophe. So, expecting them to behave like the above characters is nonsensical at best.
Because in the 24th Star trek series most of the continuity errors from TOS were sorted out or at least explained. So why create even more contradictions and continuity erroris just for the sake of cheap effects?

Irrelevant.
No, it isn't


[/QUOTE] To make them look more alien. The exact reason why they were changed for no reason in TMP.[/QUOTE] Which was downright ridiculous since the Klingons were as good and fearful as they were.
If they wanted horrifying aliens, why not create new ones? Lack of skill?

This is just painful. Lynx, you haven't seen DSC, except for the first three episodes, and you keep going on and on, acting as if you know the show. You don't, it shows, and you can't hold up your end of the argument.

You're way out of your lane. It's like talking about TNG in 1992, when you haven't seen anything past "The Naked Now".

It was actually 5 episodes.

Yeah, the episode was pretty bad. But the ideas behind the reunification were great. As often is with Discovery, they have some real potentially fantastic ideas that they totally botch in the realisation (see adira, for example, which is a character that could go in an incredibly number of direction but instead has been barely there once they found Starfleet).
Good ideas which are botched makes a bad series.

ah, yes, that was pretty bad.
I'm really happy that we agree on that one! :techman:

there is no “some half-a**ed, light-beer version of the previous species”: the Vulcans are still the Vulcans and the romulans are still the romulans, but they now share home planet again. And of course living together brought to life a third group: people with parents from both.
Yes, and all that will create a new species, The Romulcan whic will become the half-a**ed, light-beer version of the previous species" which I fear it will be and goodbye to two of Star Trek's most interesting and iconic species.

I don’t think when the reunification was completed, but it started decades before the destruction of Romulus and for sure was brought to term way later. Destroying Romulus happened in Star Trek 2009 and had nothing to do with the reunification.
But if not some stupid producer had come up with the destruction of Romulus, then the possible reunification had taken much longer time and the Romulans would still have had their empire anfd their homeworld.Now they are reduced to just some ordinary uninteresting species.

Good luck “fighting” against paramount.
Well, at least I have the courage to stand up for what I think instead of being a coward standing on the knees, bowing and accepting all crap throwed at me. I can at least look in the mirror without being ashamed.

[/QUOTE]no.[/QUOTE]
Yes!

no, they time traveled.
I hope that they could time-travel themselves out of the Star Trek Universe and screw up the Gray Universe instead. Oh wait, not necessary. That's already done.

wrong. It happened in the late 24th, way after the last tng movie.
Which will affect every single 24th century series and book which will be released in the future.
No use in buying books then? And just when I discovered Una mcCorkacks excellent books about Cardassia.

it hasn’t. And hybrids are usually stronger anyway, not weaker, as Spock used to point out in TOS.
Spock is wrong there. Just look at certain mergers between sports teams and such which mostly fails.


It’s literally the same one.
No it isn't which I had described in some comment above.
If it had happened without the destruction of Romulus, the unification may have taken longer time and the Romulans would still have had their empire and their homeworld. Now they have been turned into a third-rate minor species and will perish, becoming "Romulcans".

/QUOTE] what can I say? I didn’t particularly enjoy it in my last rewatch.[/QUOTE]
It's still great to watch despite dated special effects.
 
You are creating scenarios in your head and making assumptions about things that you do not have a full understanding of.

There is no reason (as seen on Picard) why there can't or won't be Vulcans and Romulans in the 24th C onwards.

The Romulans are having to adapt to the new circumstances after their empire collapses somewhat due to the destruction of Romulus but they appear to have reorganised politically into the Romulans Free State (and the Tal Shiar still appear to be about so not much different from the Empire then).

Your statement about merging creating weakness is entirely wrong from a scientific point of view - you state it based on sports teams but that is not even slightly connected to the discussion. Varied genetic background creates a greater ability to adapt and tends to protect the strong/beneficial genes and lose the weaker ones.

Also with Vulcans and Romulans being the same species, just different races within, it is hardly creating some entirely new and unknown.

It is more akin to cultural shift and merging.

With the Klingons, again, there is no reason at all that there can't be multiple "races" or phenotypes within the Klingon species just as we have on Earth.

You speak in absolutist terms and as if the decisions made are a personal slight against you - I do appreciate English is your second language so certain words and phrases do not always come across as intended (my best mate is from Bulgaria and it happens with him all the time) so I get that it may in part be due to that.
 
Well, that settles all. There will be no Vulcans and no Romulans in future 24th century Star Trek books or movies.
Instead we have to stand the lukewarm, light-beer watered-down Romulcans
oh, stop it, this is totally in your head.

And all that because of the crappy boring Discovery with its bad characters and stupid producers!
As you have been told multiple times, Discovery has nothing to do with the destruction of Romulus.
Good ideas which are botched makes a bad series.
Maybe. But the ideas can still be good.

Yes, and all that will create a new species, The Romulcan whic will become the half-a**ed, light-beer version of the previous species" which I fear it will be and goodbye to two of Star Trek's most interesting and iconic species.
And here we go again. As of the 32nd century this hasn’t happened, so cool down.

But if not some stupid producer had come up with the destruction of Romulus, then the possible reunification had taken much longer time and the Romulans would still have had their empire anfd their homeworld.Now they are reduced to just some ordinary uninteresting species.
Once more, you are making wild assumptions on things you have no knowledge of.

Well, at least I have the courage to stand up for what I think instead of being a coward standing on the knees, bowing and accepting all crap throwed at me. I can at least look in the mirror without being ashamed.
Spock is wrong there. Just look at certain mergers between sports teams and such which mostly fails.
I don’t follow sports team, but scientifically speaking Spock is totally right.

No it isn't which I had described in some comment above.
If it had happened without the destruction of Romulus, the unification may have taken longer
As opposed to the several hundreds year it took?
time and the Romulans would still have had their empire
maybe. Maybe not.

It's still great to watch despite dated special effects
I didn’t mention the special effects at all. It’s mainly the pacing of the movie I found unbearably slow.
 
Most likely the Discovery Klingon makeup, in general, has been abandoned. A Klingon hasn't been seen in Discovery since Season 2. I think they're trying to make us forget about them. The change to their makeup is one change that isn't going to stick.

That first episode of DSC deliberately referenced the twelve great Houses of Klingons, but we didn't see all twelve onscreen. There was plenty of wiggle room to accept that some of the Houses in the huge Klingon Empire would look like TMP, ST III, ST V/VI and Kelvinverse Klingons.
 
That first episode of DSC deliberately referenced the twelve great Houses of Klingons, but we didn't see all twelve onscreen. There was plenty of wiggle room to accept that some of the Houses in the huge Klingon Empire would look like TMP, ST III, ST V/VI and Kelvinverse Klingons.
There is, but I doubt we'll see much of the Disco Klingons again, if ever. They went over about as well as New Coke.

And I'm not like some other people here. I only divide Klingons three ways: TOS/TAS types, DSC types, and the types we see everywhere else.

"But there are TMP types, TSFS types, TFF types, TNG types..." No. Those are minor variations of the same type.

" ... Kelvin types..." Already forgot about them. :p
 
Last edited:
No, it is the canonical future. To think a future writer can ignore it would be like saying in the late 1980s that the TOS movies are free to ignore TNG. Or since you're playing the time travel card, it's like saying because of the TCW, Enterprise would have been able to ignore all the other shows.

This simply is now how shit works.

Prior showrunners ignored what they wanted to ignore, current showrunners ignore what they want to ignore, future showrunners will ignore what they want to ignore.
 
Thanks for information.

Well, that settles all. There will be no Vulcans and no Romulans in future 24th century Star Trek books or movies.
Instead we have to stand the lukewarm, light-beer watered-down Romulcans.

And just when I had discovered Una McCormacks excellent books about Cardassia and Garak who is one of my favorites. :weep:

The risk is obvious that the Romulcans will show up there too.

No more book-buying then! If I want to read good Star Trek stories, then I have to write them myself.

Or re-read the excellent book The Black Shore for the umpteenth time, at least more exciting than to watch Discovery.

And all that because of the crappy boring Discovery with its bad characters and stupid producers! :mad:

Let's consult Taylor on this one....

LvnXmXp.gif


:lol:

Seriously I don't know what any of this has to do with differences in 23rd century-based shows, but you might want to take a break if Star Trek is making you that angry (especially, Star Trek you haven't actually watched).
 
I liked the distinction made earlier (by LordGarth, I believe), about all of it being canon, jut not all of it currently being in active continuity. Newer versions of the 23rd century don't discredit the TOS one.
 
Are they. I hot the impression from commente here that they and the Vulcans have become something in-between what they used to be
Nope. They're not different from what they were before.

Yes, and all that will create a new species, The Romulcan whic will become the half-a**ed, light-beer version of the previous species" which I fear it will be and goodbye to two of Star Trek's most interesting and iconic species.
If you actually watch Discovery Seasons 3 and 4, you'll see Romulans still acting like Romulans, and Vulcans still acting like Vulcans in the 32nd Century.

The Head of their Government is a very logical, and not very emotional full Vulcan.

Stop making assumptions about something you'll never watch.

The risk is obvious that the Romulcans will show up there too.
According to Discovery, the unification between the two species doesn't happen until centuries after Romulus is destroyed, and as I said above, even in the 32nd Century there is still some obvious cultural division between the two species, they haven't melded completely.

You're so hell bent on hating something you're not listening to what anyone is saying.
 
Last edited:
That first episode of DSC deliberately referenced the twelve great Houses of Klingons, but we didn't see all twelve onscreen. There was plenty of wiggle room to accept that some of the Houses in the huge Klingon Empire would look like TMP, ST III, ST V/VI and Kelvinverse Klingons.
Honestly, this makes the Klingon Empire more of an actual empire, as an empire is supposed to be a group of states under a single supreme authority. Maybe each House actually represents a planet in that empire, and each planet could have been settled centuries earlier from Q'onos, and we got a little bit of divergent evolution on each.

Alternatively, since all of these different Klingons are only seen between the 22nd and 24th centuries, we could treat all of the different looking Klingons in the 23rd century as attempts to cure the Augment virus.
 
But nothing in ENT explains the "Turtles".
Yup it does. I mean, how do you explain the TMP Klingons vs. the variety of Klingons in TUC? What's the acceptable answer?
Because in the 24th Star trek series most of the continuity errors from TOS were sorted out or at least explained. So why create even more contradictions and continuity erroris just for the sake of cheap effects?
Because that's what artists do. They create new things and ignore what they want.
No, it isn't
It actually is. Because regardless of whether one likes it or not social commentary is built in to Trek.
If they wanted horrifying aliens, why not create new ones? Lack of skill?
Again, same reason why TMP redid the Klingons. Going from grease paint faces to bumpy headed weirdos is just as annoying.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top