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What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

Prodigy is good, and I look forward to seeing every episode, but it's a kid's show.

Lower Decks? I stopped regularly watching early on in Season 2, binged the rest of the season at the end, and only saw one episode from Season 3. Never say never, but I'm probably not going to see the others.

Strange New Worlds is good -- and I think you'd like it -- but I like it more for the characters than the plots (which aren't bad, but I've seen them all before). The major drawback for me is that I feel like sometimes SNW seems too much like it's waiting around for TOS to happen. I could take it or leave it. But don't go by me. I think you'd like it more than I do.

I like Picard almost as much as Discovery. After DSC ends, I'd be fine with hanging up my spurs. It really depends on whatever they come up with next.

I guess I hung up my spurs on TOS several years ago, but with the advent of SNW I'm actually looking forward to them developing a follow up with the crew and personel of Kirk
I've always advocated that Star Trek should have been remade for the modern age with new actors, writers, producers, directors etc, and now it seems inevitable.
Of course, I still have to find a way of watching these shows.
 
Acknowledging flaws requires a measure of self-reflection in a very secure place, knowing that one can grow from it, rather than be shamed for it.

Where ST is concerned, that "perfect, evolved human" crap really took off during the early convention years, straight from Roddenberry's mouth, who somehow believed auditoriums full of TOS fans somehow never watched the object of their fandom. TOS was never populated with perfect characters, and in one way or another, they were challenged or revealed to share many of the flaws (which can be a strength in some cases) of the 20th century viewer, which made them relatable. Thankfully, Roddenberry's 70s California sociology professor BS was ignored by the creatives behind the majority of the TOS movies, all having more heart and compelling character interactions than TMP and especially TNG, with its cast of soulless, dry, looking-down-the-nose authoritarians (where presuming they are the enlightened judges in every conceivable situation).
 
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Interconnectedness gives me scenes like this
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I like scenes that. Gives me a lump in the throat every time.
Best superhero movie scene ever! (Until I watch Black panther 2)
 
I'm afraid everything pre-2030 will be cancelled by the mid-21st century. What might today be considered progressive will be deemed off-limits by the presentism-orientated AI in charge of content creation & management.

I mean, we know from episodes like "The Neutral Zone" that the denizens of the 24th Century do widely regard 20th and 21st Century humans as barbaric and their values as inferior.

Same with tolerance. They talk a good game, but if you don't think the way you're "supposed to" think, tolerance is the opposite of what happens.

I mean, every happy asshole is tolerant. The question is, of what are you tolerant? That's where the conflict comes into play. Some people are tolerant of things that others view as fundamentally unacceptable.

This is why the STAR TREK franchise is better than Marvel. (Or more to the point, Disney.)

With Marvel, everything is so interconnected that it becomes a chore to watch instead of just enjoying what you watch.

Meh. The interconnectedness of the MCU is deeply over-stated. Most of the MCU films and shows are designed to work just fine without the other stuff. I mean, is it really that plausible that Pete and company would have a fun romp of an adventure in Spider-Man: Far From Home so soon after the one-two punch of the Blip and the death of Tony Stark? No, it's not. But that's not the story Far From Home wanted to tell, so they found ways to handwave away the emotional consequences of Avengers: Infinity War/Endgame (even as later stuff like The Falcon and the Winter Soldier dealt with that stuff head-on).

The mycelial network shouldn't exist at all.

I'm fine with the mycelial network, but I think it was a fundamental mistake to set the first two seasons of DIS in the 2250s. They found plot devices to rationalize it away, but having Starfleet discover a super-FTL like the mycelial network just really badly undermines the verisimilitude of the premise of VOY set a hundred twenty years later. And while I think the Sarek/Spock/Michael family drama worked fine, Spock and Sarek feel in DIS like fundamentally different characters to me than they do in TOS.

Really, if DIS had been set in, say, the 2390s, then it would have worked just fine. Michael's parents could have been killed in a Klingon raid during the Federation/Klingon War of DS9's 4th and 5th seasons. T'Kuvma could have been leading an anti-Federation reactionary movement in response to twenty years of Martok's Federation-friendly rule. The same basic story could have been told with the Klingon War. And the mycelial network could have been developed in response to Voyager's journey and the tech they found.

Of course, if they had done that, we couldn't have gotten Anson Mount as Pike in S2 or SNW, so... *shrugs*

I would argue DISCOVERY has yet to hit any of the highs the previous shows have... it's one of the reasons why it doesn't grab me like most of the other shows do. I'm not saying DISCO doesn't have good episodes. There are multiple really, really good ones. Unfortunately, except for "Lethe" and "Project Daedalus", I can't tell you which ones they are because all the episodes just blur together due to the season spanning arcs.

For whatever it's worth, I think "The Vulcan Hello/Battle at the Binary Stars," "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad," "People of Earth," and, especially, "Forget Me Not," are some of the greatest episodes of ST ever produced.

First, ENT has more sense of wonder and excitement by the crew, at least in the first two seasons, than DISCO.

To be honest, I think the crew of the NX-01 often came across like they were bored of their jobs and didn't really want to be there anymore (because they were being written by guys who had been doing ST for 15-20 years at that point and were creatively burnt out).

PICARD certainly doesn't have that.

Well, PIC isn't about that. It's a show preoccupied with entirely different thematic concerns. Saying PIC doesn't have a sense of wonder and excitement is a little bit like saying that The Godfather doesn't have a sense of playful romance or that Love Actually doesn't have a sense of tragic nihilism.

Second, the arcs on ENT were better executed. The Xindi arc did go on a bit long, but it worked overall, and they actually stuck the landing. DISCO has been doing season arcs for 4 years, and only the last one mostly stuck the landing. And the season 4 miniarcs on ENT were a perfect format... DISCO could learn from this. Tell the story in 3, 4 episodes and move on... don't have enough story for 6 episodes and drag things out for 6 more only to try a mad dash at the end for closure. PICARD is even worse at this.

Third, characters drive me, too. It's why DS9 has been and still is my favorite show in the franchise. I don't feel really drawn to most of these characters, not in the same way I do with other shows. It's certainly not the actors, because I like the casting choices and they do a damn good job with what they are given. But the writing feels rather... hollow. I don't have another word to describe how I feel. It's almost like boxes are being checked just for the sake of doing it instead of having it happen more organically. Boxes like childhood trauma: check. A lover turns out bad: check.

I do agree with your critique of the serialization structure. I think what has happened is, the combination of strong serialization and shorter seasons creates a situation where it is harder to do deep dives into the characters that take them out of the immediate circumstances of the arc. One of my favorite scenes in DIS S4 was the scene with Michael and Saru getting their anxiety out together by yelling -- it was a lovely scene of two friends having a ridiculous, loving moment together... but it was shoe-horned into the middle of this episode where there's supposed to be this dire emergency driving the situation. There ends up being a problem with pacing and tone as a result, even though the scene was, by itself, wonderful.

I think DIS would be better served by using the semi-serialized structure of DS9 or the mini-arc structure of ENT S4 -- a mix of standalones and arcs that would give the writers the opportunity to explore the characters in ways that are more tonally appropriate and that don't hurt plot pacing as much.

While ENTERPRISE did basically forget 2 of their leads,

The ones who were played by actors who weren't white, I might note.

And I definitely don't see shades of Sisko or Kirk in Burnham. The maverick side of Kirk in Burnham, perhaps. But with Kirk and Sisko... it felt like they earned the command and loyalty of the crew.

Honestly, I think I see Michael as having done more to earn her crew's loyalty than Kirk. We've seen every step of her journey from an absolute pariah to someone the crew trusts with their lives. We never saw Kirk really earn his crew's trust -- he already had it in his first episode.

Burnham seemed to get too many scenes and episodes where she's getting a pat on the back from everyone on the ship and confiding so much with the whole crew. Kirk had Bones and Spock... Sisko had Jadzia. A leader should have a confidant, but not the whole damn crew.

I don't see that at all. Michael's clear confidante is Saru, and vice versa when he was captain.

Weird: I was just thinking of commenting on Troi's adoption of a standard-issue Starfleet uniform.

Some people believe that change to be "great" or even "cool", but I thoroughly detest that alteration; it's an unfortunate bit of military conformity in a future - and a society - that doesn't neatly align with twentieth/twenty-first century military conventions.

But the entire point of a uniform is that it promotes a feeling of unity and facilitates the function of the chain of command. Why wouldn't that still be a thing?

And are you forgetting that her mistake was attempted mutiny, not her strategy she was trying to implement?

No, it was both. She killed the Torchbearer and thereby fulfilled T'Kuvma's bigoted assertions about Federation aggression lying underneath its nominal claims to diplomacy.

Because that worked with the Vulcans, and almost certainly would have worked there.

The entire point of that part of "The Vulcan Hello"/"Battle at the Binary Stars" was that she was deeply, deeply wrong as a result of the trauma inflicted upon her by Klingon raiders as a child.
 
Really, if DIS had been set in, say, the 2390s, then it would have worked just fine. Michael's parents could have been killed in a Klingon raid during the Federation/Klingon War of DS9's 4th and 5th seasons. T'Kuvma could have been leading an anti-Federation reactionary movement in response to twenty years of Martok's Federation-friendly rule. The same basic story could have been told with the Klingon War. And the mycelial network could have been developed in response to Voyager's journey and the tech they found.
Agreed. I mean, it could have easily been something from Voyager's encounter with beings in Equinox.
Of course, if they had done that, we couldn't have gotten Anson Mount as Pike in S2 or SNW, so... *shrugs*
Worth it.
But the entire point of a uniform is that it promotes a feeling of unity and facilitates the function of the chain of command. Why wouldn't that still be a thing?
Agreed.
The entire point of that part of "The Vulcan Hello"/"Battle at the Binary Stars" was that she was deeply, deeply wrong as a result of the trauma inflicted upon her by Klingon raiders as a child.
Indeed a great point.
 
Regarding my point about ENT basically forgetting two of their leads, I was referring more to Reed and Mayweather.

Mayweather, hands down, was the most forgotten lead character in the franchise. Having said that, the few episodes where he does get focus are just dull because I never found the actor pulling me in with his scenes. I wonder if the writers weren't that impressed with him either, which could somewhat explain why they never wrote for him.

And Reed got less to do than Hoshi. I know this is probably debatable, and I agree it is a matter of perspective. But we only get a few episodes focused on him, and we really don't learn much about the man, except in "MINEFIELD". He doesn't really have a growth arc, where Hoshi has clearly shown her growth season by season.

Season 1 Hoshi: scared, afraid to fail, timid overall. Season 2: shows a bit more confidence. Season 3: unwavering in getting her job done, ready to commit suicide to prevent the Xindi from using her to help them. Season 4: confident, gets right in the Earth President's face and stands her ground. The growth is certainly there.

Season 1 Reed: very duty bound, stiff upper lip, get the job done. Season 2 Reed: very duty bound, stiff upper lip, get the job done... but at least we learn he's aquaphobic (I'm with you, buddy) and how he feels a commander should be with his crew. Season 3 Reed: very duty bound, stiff upper lip, get the job done... but he regresses into a teenage pissing contest with Hayes. Season 4 Reed: very duty bound, stiff upper lip, get the job done... but he secretly worked for Section 31.
 
I am not a fan of the underlying impetus behind the decision.
You mean the fact she looked better in a uniform? That's largely what it came down to. Marina Sirtis had been lobbying to wear a uniform for years, the writers decided in Chain of Command to indulge her, the thinking "we'll show this new Captain is so strict, he makes Deanna wear a uniform." But then everyone realized Deanna looked better in a uniform than she ever did in those silly catsuits, so the change was made permanent.
Same in DISCO, the Admiral; who was also a "Counselor" for Doctor Culber, was wearing casual clothes.
Are you referring to Kovich? If so, we still have no idea exactly what he does. Yes, his badge does include the rank insignia of a Starfleet Commodore, but it is a different color than all the other Starfleet badges seen in the 32nd century. Also, given Fleet Admiral Vance, the head of Starfleet answers to Kovich in the middle of a battle, I doubt Kovich is active duty Starfleet. I suspect Kovich is a member of the Federation government who had served in Starfleet at some point, achieving the rank of Commodore when he left. Or his position in the government could be of equal "pay grade" to a Starfleet Commodore, which is why his badge shows that rank.

Though given how vague and enigmatic the character is supposed to be, I don't think it's a good idea to use him as a precedent to explain or prove anything.
 
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I don't like Aztecing and I think it often is horribly executed.

There is no reason Starfleet would be plastering weird, off-colour and near cyclopean plates on their ships. At the least they should be much more uniform in color, size, and texture; save for actual, temporary battle damage control.
 
ORDER IN THE COURT!


I'll have a bacon double cheeseburger with lettuce and steak sauce, seasoned fries, and a caramel shake with bacon, please.

(If you ever go to Five Guys, get this exact combination of burger and shake. I have done many arrangements, and this is just pure AWESOME! Plus, get a bacon and cheese hot dog with BBQ sauce... same awesomeness.
 
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I've always advocated that Star Trek should have been remade for the modern age with new actors, writers, producers, directors etc, and now it seems inevitable.
They're bringing back the entire TNG cast for the third season of PIC and dropped most of the series' original cast.

If PIC Season 3 establishes a precedent, then it's possible that Pike's crew could slowly (or swiftly) be replaced with Kirk's crew on SNW. So the series you're talking about could actually already be here.

I'm of the opinion that if they have a TV series with Kirk in command of the Enterprise, then it's effectively an all-but-official acknowledgement that the movies (at least the most recent version of them) are finished.
 
They're bringing back the entire TNG cast for the third season of PIC and dropped most of the series' original cast.

So, the series' last season is solely depended on the nostalgia factor. Not interested.
 
So, the series' last season is solely depended on the nostalgia factor. Not interested.
Not where I was going with the point of my last post, but understandable.

As for myself, this the most interested I've been in a "TNG Movie" since First Contact. So, whatever, I'm in my early-40s, I'm most likely half-way through my life. I can look backward and forward at the same time in equal amounts and that would be totally appropriate.

SNW is one big fat looking backwards, if you really want to look at it like that. And it's the one I'm interested in the least of the live-action series. How does it end? It becomes TOS. Or some version of it, anyway. PIC Season 3 is at least pushing the TNG Story forwards into somewhere it hasn't been before.

Real Nostalgia would be the TNG Crew all reunited, Data still being alive, and all of them serving on the Enterprise-D acting like it's still 1994 (or 2370 in their case). PIC Season 3 supposedly has everyone in different places, they're not serving on the Enterprise, and Picard's not the Captain. And they're not acting like it's 30 years ago.
 
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What a difference 20 years makes.

2002:
"No more prequels! Get rid of Rick Berman! We want serialization!"
2022: "Strange New Worlds is the best NuTrek!" (a.k.a. the prequel) "Lower Decks feels like Star Trek!" (a.k.a. the one that calls back to Berman Trek the most) "No more serialization!" (from the same people who demanded it before!)

Though, in fairness, it's not a one-way street and I'm guilty of this too. For instance...

Lord Garth in 2002: "No more TNG Movies!"
Lord Garth in 2022: "I can't wait for Picard Season 3!" (a.k.a. pretty much a TNG Movie)
 
I feel there’s something of a “Flanderisation” happening with NuTrek, particularly in the animated shows and s3-4 of DIS. There’s a huge emphasis on how amazing Starfleet is (“but we’re Staaaarfleeeeet!!!!”) which gives me a sense of overegging the pudding just a bit. I’ve been rewatching TOS and there’s none of that (although obviously it took most of the first season before they even settled on a name for Starfleet). I don’t think there was a huge amount of that on TNG and, of course, DS9 went out of its way to paint a more balanced portrait. I wish they’d rein it in just a bit. Quit telling us, just show us.
 
The best thing about TOS and how it portrayed Starfleet was that it was a group of wildly imperfect individuals who still pursued a noble goal, even if they might never reach it. TNG lost sight of that and all but said at different times that we'd reached that goal and any problems in the system came from outside, from alien and enemy sources not of the Federation.
 
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