What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Farscape One]

I would ask what puts ENTERPRISE above these two shows?

Picard is almost understandable. It struggles along at times. DSC has it's ups and downs but characters for me drive that series better than most. Or, maybe that's the appeal for me is these characters who struggle along and not everyone wants those types of characters. I just see too much of Sisko or Kirk reflected in Burnham to not feel the draw, vs. Archer or Trip who just don't appeal to me.

First, ENT has more sense of wonder and excitement by the crew, at least in the first two seasons, than DISCO. PICARD certainly doesn't have that.

Second, the arcs on ENT were better executed. The Xindi arc did go on a bit long, but it worked overall, and they actually stuck the landing. DISCO has been doing season arcs for 4 years, and only the last one mostly stuck the landing. And the season 4 miniarcs on ENT were a perfect format... DISCO could learn from this. Tell the story in 3, 4 episodes and move on... don't have enough story for 6 episodes and drag things out for 6 more only to try a mad dash at the end for closure. PICARD is even worse at this.

Third, characters drive me, too. It's why DS9 has been and still is my favorite show in the franchise. I don't feel really drawn to most of these characters, not in the same way I do with other shows. It's certainly not the actors, because I like the casting choices and they do a damn good job with what they are given. But the writing feels rather... hollow. I don't have another word to describe how I feel. It's almost like boxes are being checked just for the sake of doing it instead of having it happen more organically. Boxes like childhood trauma: check. A lover turns out bad: check.

While ENTERPRISE did basically forget 2 of their leads, there was growth and development for others that drew me to them. And those things happened organically. Example: Hoshi starts off terrified of the mission and everything. By the end, she is a strong, confident officer who stands up to even the Earth President.


And I definitely don't see shades of Sisko or Kirk in Burnham. The maverick side of Kirk in Burnham, perhaps. But with Kirk and Sisko... it felt like they earned the command and loyalty of the crew. Burnham seemed to get too many scenes and episodes where she's getting a pat on the back from everyone on the ship and confiding so much with the whole crew. Kirk had Bones and Spock... Sisko had Jadzia. A leader should have a confidant, but not the whole damn crew. I feel that undercuts Burnham. And we saw with Kirk and Sisko that the crew was with them through actions, not a constant, "We're with you." Show, don't tell. I definitely don't see similarities with Sisko... Sisko was a much more layered captain.

 

[fireproof78]

And I definitely don't see shades of Sisko or Kirk in Burnham. The maverick side of Kirk in Burnham, perhaps. But with Kirk and Sisko... it felt like they earned the command and loyalty of the crew. Burnham seemed to get too many scenes and episodes where she's getting a pat on the back from everyone on the ship and confiding so much with the whole crew. Kirk had Bones and Spock... Sisko had Jadzia. A leader should have a confidant, but not the whole damn crew. I feel that undercuts Burnham. And we saw with Kirk and Sisko that the crew was with them through actions, not a constant, "We're with you." Show, don't tell. I definitely don't see similarities with Sisko... Sisko was a much more layered captain.

All three are wounded and respond in a similar way. While they were all three leaders, each of them struggled in their own way, which drew me to them. I see much in that response, which appeals to me.

And the season 4 miniarcs on ENT were a perfect format... DISCO could learn from this. Tell the story in 3, 4 episodes and move on... don't have enough story for 6 episodes and drag things out for 6 more only to try a mad dash at the end for closure. PICARD is even worse at this.

Fair enough.

 

[1001001]

However, since there are people who do love the arcs, I'll go another route so the variety of style for all fans can be maintained... have characters get development without resorting to whining in the middle of a crisis. You're Starfleet officers, an organization made up of professionals that take care of the problems in front of them. I'm not saying a breakdown here and there can't occur, but it felt like everyone had a breakdown in every episode. It's boring after a while.

I don’t necessarily disagree. DSC can get quite “talkie/feelie”.

For me, I try to keep in mind the unbelievable trauma that they’ve all been through. The sacrifice they made to “save all the things” is pretty overwhelming if you think about it.

It seems pretty natural that there would be a lot of processing things.

 

[Paul755]

Second, the arcs on ENT were better executed. The Xindi arc did go on a bit long, but it worked overall, and they actually stuck the landing. DISCO has been doing season arcs for 4 years, and only the last one mostly stuck the landing. And the season 4 miniarcs on ENT were a perfect format... DISCO could learn from this. Tell the story in 3, 4 episodes and move on... don't have enough story for 6 episodes and drag things out for 6 more only to try a mad dash at the end for closure. PICARD is even worse at this.

the season 4 format for Enterprise was pretty much perfect. It was like a series of mini-movies sandwiched by bottle episodes that helped build out the universe.

and the ENT Mirror-verse felt much closer to the TOS version in that it was simple, it just made the characters just cartoony, mustache twirling bad guys. It let everyone but Kirk be super hammy. The Disco version of the Mirror-verse felt a little “try too hard.” DS9’s version tried to do both and ended up collapsing into self parody after 2-3 good episodes.

 

[Farscape One]

I don’t necessarily disagree. DSC can get quite “talkie/feelie”.

For me, I try to keep in mind the unbelievable trauma that they’ve all been through. The sacrifice they made to “save all the things” is pretty overwhelming if you think about it.

It seems pretty natural that there would be a lot of processing things.

Processing trauma is understandable. But that it happens to pretty much everyone in every situation gets very redundant after a while. It becomes just as rote as 'save the galaxy' every season. I think DISCO would have benefitted from an episode or two that had nothing to do with an arc... basically, do TNG's "Family". It's proven to work because that episode is immensely popular, and really was a damn good one. If you can't fit it all in one episode, do one with half the cast, go back to the arc for a couple episodes, then do another one with the other half of the cast. You get to give them all trauma focus stories, and you aren't taking away from the season arc, especially since they waste 4 - 6 episodes in the middle already. There, killed two birds with one stone.

I also don't find it believable that a captain would agonize as often with their crew as Burnham has. Once in a while with a couple members of the crew, absolutely. Every captain should have their personal confidant. Not half the ship. It undercuts Burnham in a way that none of the other captains have ever had done to them. It makes it seem like she can't lead on her own, and I don't think that's a message you want to send with a female captain. Janeway had her issues, but being able to make decisions and lead on her own was never one of them.

 

[Farscape One]

the season 4 format for Enterprise was pretty much perfect. It was like a series of mini-movies sandwiched by bottle episodes that helped build out the universe.

and the ENT Mirror-verse felt much closer to the TOS version in that it was simple, it just made the characters just cartoony, mustache twirling bad guys. It let everyone but Kirk be super hammy. The Disco version of the Mirror-verse felt a little “try too hard.” DS9’s version tried to do both and ended up collapsing into self parody after 2-3 good episodes.

Amen. The only good thing from DISCO's mirror universe was Georgiou.

 

[Lord Garth]

I also don't find it believable that a captain would agonize as often with their crew as Burnham has. Once in a while with a couple members of the crew, absolutely. Every captain should have their personal confidant. Not half the ship. It undercuts Burnham in a way that none of the other captains have ever had done to them. It makes it seem like she can't lead on her own, and I don't think that's a message you want to send with a female captain. Janeway had her issues, but being able to make decisions and lead on her own was never one of them.

Enterprise is a better show than Discovery | Page 3 | The Trek BBS

I find Michael Burnam too perfect. She makes quick decisions (that is what a good leader does) but she doesn’t seem to be effected by every decision she makes; and she always makes the right decision.
Archer agonized over every decision he made. Command wasn’t easy for him, and that made him more human because he considered the consequences of his actions.

I'll let you two hash it out.

Let me know when you all can decide if she's too perfect or too flawed.

 

[fireproof78]

Let me know when you all can decide if she's too perfect or too flawed.

Both

 

[Oddish]

Just to show I can be controversial about Trek, here's a big one.

In many ways, the Enterprise crew would have been better off if Jellico had stayed after Chain of Command. Yes, it's known, I'm not his staunchest advocate; the man did make some mistakes. But consider...

Picard: Picard has just recovered from days of horrific torture at the hands of Gul Macet, which actually broke him. Realistically, he would be dealing with some serious psychological issues, and need to go to Earth or maybe Betazed for treatment.

Riker: Not even Picard's boot up his keister in BoBW1 was enough to dislodge Riker from his position, but I think a few more days of head butting with Jellico would do the job just fine. Riker grabs the first command available, and his career is back on track ten years early. Maybe he makes admiral himself.

Data: Data handled Jellico's no-nonsense command style just fine, and received the job he spent years earning. He would have continued to do it well.

Worf: He respects Picard greatly, of course... but Jellico is a WARRIOR captain. Worf will thrive. And, I think that when Jellico is promoted to Admiral and given a squadron during the Dominion war, Worf and Data both get their own ships.

Crusher: Difficult transition for her. Maybe in time, she realizes that there is a method to Jellico's madness: saving the lives of his people. Just like hers. Or, maybe she goes back to Starfleet Medical.

LaForge: Once Geordi has made the changes Jellico mandates, he only has to maintain them, and his workload tapers off. And, as we see in other episodes, Geordi can connect with anybody.

Troi: Like Riker, Troi doesn't do well here. While I think she quickly grows to like the uniform (and will keep wearing it), the fact remains that Jellico doesn't listen to her, so she can't do her job. I like to think she gets an invitation to join Riker, and takes it.

 

[Farscape One]

Enterprise is a better show than Discovery | Page 3 | The Trek BBS

I'll let you two hash it out.

Let me know when you all can decide if she's too perfect or too flawed.

That does bring up the point of Burnham always being right. That's not believable. Be more often right than wrong, yes. Absolutely, especially when you are the lead character. But not allowing errors makes it seem like the writers are afraid to let her make a mistake. It's even more apparent here than with Janeway. At least with Janeway, she has the excuse of UPN not wanting to shake the status quo, so errors happening with consequences was out the window. I would have preferred she made an error here and there, because it would have been believable. (And I'm talking lasting consequences, not forgotten by the next episode. I'm staring squarely at you, "EQUINOX, PART II".)

And regarding the agonizing over decisions, my problem isn't that she did it. It's that she did that with more characters than all the previous captains COMBINED.

I'm not even going to add comparing the frequency of her agonizing and Archer doing it because they are both very different eras. Archer's era, it was all a blank page. Burnham's era, more examples and things to follow... even more so from season 3 onward. (But if you want to add that to the mix, I'll play... it should not have happened as often with Burnham because there were far more guidelines and scenarios for reference.)

Janeway could have agonized a lot more, given her situation. But she didn't. Even as inconsistently written as she was, I find Janeway a better role model for leadership than Burnham.

 

[Lord Garth]

That does bring up the point of Burnham always being right. That's not believable. Be more often right than wrong, yes. Absolutely, especially when you are the lead character. But not allowing errors makes it seem like the writers are afraid to let her make a mistake.

Not this again. She made a HUGE mistake in "Battle at the Binary Stars". Why do the people who complain about Burnham "always being right" keep forgetting about this example? Her foolhardiness leads to Captain Georgiou and T'Kuvma being killed.

 

[Farscape One]

Just to show I can be controversial about Trek, here's a big one.

In many ways, the Enterprise crew would have been better off if Jellico had stayed after Chain of Command. Yes, unknown I'm not his staunchest advocate; the man did make some mistakes. But consider...

Picard: Picard has just recovered from days of horrific torture at the hands of Gul Macet, which actually broke him. Realistically, he would be dealing with some serious psychological issues, and need to go to Earth or maybe Betazed for treatment.

Riker: Not even Picard's boot up his keister in BoBW1 was enough to dislodge Riker from his position, but I think a few more days of head butting with Jellico would do the job just fine. Riker grabs the first command available, and his career is back on track ten years early. Maybe he makes admiral himself.

Data: Data handled Jellico's no-nonsense command style just fine, and received the job he spent years earning. He would have continued to do it well.

Worf: He respects Picard greatly, of course... but Jellico is a WARRIOR captain. Worf will thrive. And, I think that when Jellico is promoted to Admiral and given a squadron during the Dominion war, Worf and Data both get their own ships.

Crusher: Difficult transition for her. Maybe in time, she realizes that there is a method to Jellico's madness: saving the lives of his people. Just like hers. Or, maybe she goes back to Starfleet Medical.

LaForge: Once Geordi has made the changes Jellico mandates, he only has to maintain them, and his workload tapers off. And, as we see in other episodes, Geordi can connect with anybody.

Troi: Like Riker, Troi doesn't do well here. While I think she quickly grows to like the uniform (and will keep wearing it), the fact remains that Jellico doesn't listen to her, so she can't do her job. I like to think she gets an invitation to join Riker, and takes it.

That ENTIRE post is...




Difficult to argue, and I agree with many aspects, particularly regarding Data and Picard.

 

[Ragitsu]

Weird: I was just thinking of commenting on Troi's adoption of a standard-issue Starfleet uniform.

Some people believe that change to be "great" or even "cool", but I thoroughly detest that alteration; it's an unfortunate bit of military conformity in a future - and a society - that doesn't neatly align with twentieth/twenty-first century military conventions. Then again, DS9 was almost on the scene around this time, so...a harder edge/darker-and-edgier coloring bleeding over onto late-series TNG was not exactly surprising (but still unfortunate).

 

[Farscape One]

Not this again. She made a HUGE mistake in "Battle at the Binary Stars". Why do the people who complain about Burnham "always being right" keep forgetting about this example?

And are you forgetting that her mistake was attempted mutiny, not her strategy she was trying to implement? Because that worked with the Vulcans, and almost certainly would have worked there.

Ultimately, that's what got her stripped of rank and prison time.

 

[Lord Garth]

And are you forgetting that her mistake was attempted mutiny, not her strategy she was trying to implement? Because that worked with the Vulcans, and almost certainly would have worked there.

Ultimately, that's what got her stripped of rank and prison time.

I'm not forgetting anything. But her plan was not for Georgiou and T'Kuvma to be killed. She did attempt a mutiny, but she also made some huge mistakes and in the execution of her strategy. There were several factors at play.

 

[Birb-of-Prey]

Not this again. She made a HUGE mistake in "Battle at the Binary Stars". Why do the people who complain about Burnham "always being right" keep forgetting about this example? Her foolhardiness leads to Captain Georgiou and T'Kuvma being killed.

Burnham's problem isn't that she's always right, but that she gets away with being spectacularly wrong on several occasions because she's the "Chosen One".

 

[Lord Garth]

If anyone wonders why I've been posting in the Picard Forum so much more than the Discovery Forum lately, you can put the pieces together. Five years of this was enough for me.

 

[Oddish]

Some people believe that change to be "great" or even "cool", but I thoroughly detest that alteration; it's an unfortunate bit of military conformity in a future - and a society - that doesn't neatly align with twentieth/twenty-first century military conventions.

I probably would have had her wear normal clothes while off-duty or counseling (where the uniform of a superior officer might be intimidating), but stick to the uniform on the bridge. It really did make her seem more like a professional Starfleet officer.

 

[Farscape One]

Burnham's problem isn't that she's always right, but that she gets away with being spectacularly wrong on several occasions because she's the "Chosen One".

That's definitely accurate in that she's the only lead who has done such galactically wrong stuff and gets away with it.

 

[1001001]

She did attempt a mutiny, but she also made some huge mistakes and in the execution of her strategy.

Also…she was right!