Why Is "Into Darkness" So [imagine a different, more accurate past participle here]?
- Thread starter TedShatner10
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I don't know if I would call that brilliant in either film.
One of them was Maximum Shatner Ham™. The other -- for better or for worse -- will ever be viewed by comparison to it.
Indeed. Personally I find it over the top and the whole scene ridiculous. But, for good or ill, there it stands.
I remember laughter at the Khan scream in the cinema. Up to that point there were no signs that Spock even liked Kirk.
To me it's the weakest of the Kelvin movies. Cumberbatch did a great job but they should have left him as John Harrison or renamed him Joaquin.
To me it's the weakest of the Kelvin movies. Cumberbatch did a great job but they should have left him as John Harrison or renamed him Joaquin.
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There is more a resemblance there..
What?
Hmm. No one laughed at any of the four screenings I attended.
(Besides, in story, Spock’s yell is more appropriate than Kirk’s in TWOK. Much as I appreciate a good Shatner ham sandwich.)
So I'm surprised I haven't chimed in yet. I've had a rough day so I am not as chatty as I usually am, but I wanted to put down for the record that I ADORE Into Darkness, viewing it as the best Star Trek film of the 21st century (not a difficult feat to pull off, but it counts). The 2009 film was amazing as a reintroduction to the 23rd century, but the moral questions posed in Into Darkness have resonated with me for the better part of a decade (also I'm in denial it's been 9 years since this movie came out). Where I feel Star Trek Enterprise Season 3 failed, Into Darkness succeeded, because both feature an analogy of the terrorist attacks on 9/11/2001 through a Trek lense, and while Enterprise becomes a revenge story arc that I admittedly never finished because it was just so damn dark, Into Darkness managed to wrap things up neat and tidy in 2 hours and also come out with what I feel is a more true to Trek message. That and the opening scene with the natives and the volcano, which is such pure Trek it's amazing. Also, I don't know how many people remember this, but there was a fan poll years ago about the best to worst Star Trek films, and for some reason Galaxy Quest (yes, THAT Galaxy Quest) was included in the poll and ranked higher than Into Darkness. Which is, of course, complete nonsense. All to say, Into Darkness was the Star Trek film we needed, and deserved.
Why? Who? When?
I would say Spock started warming up to Kirk toward the end of the first movie, as he submitted his candidacy to serve as first officer under Kirk. But by ST:ID, they still didn't seem to have quite the level of friendship that would warrant Spock losing his cool like that on when Kirk 'died.'
Kor
Kor
I always read it as Spock losing his cool over what might have been. No, it's not logical, but having already faced the grief of losing Pike, the fact that he compartmentalized the lose of Vulcan, and then seeing Kirk show his quality in a way that Spock could respect and understand all pushed him over the edge. It's not just "ah, my friend died." It's "Another loss that I was powerless to stop." At some point in time a person hits their breaking point. It is not logical but it is often true.
I do believe NuSpock saw in NuKirk a sort of kindred spirit, as they were both outsiders in their own way. My thought is that he yearned for a deeper friendship, but Vulcan stoicism prevented him from jumping right into it.
Kor
Generally, I think the problems I have with Into Darkness stem from the fact that the characterisation and motivations felt forced, artificial, clumsy, and/or very silly. Much like the first movie, tiny tweaks would have made it less silly and more enjoyable to me.
Key among the problems for me are:
- Kirk's ongoing unsuitability as a captain - this is dealt with in the story but I struggle with the way the crew not only remain loyal to a moron but admire his lack of common sense. Some one reminded me recently that in TMP, McCoy keeps popping onto the bridge to keep an eye on Kirk and assess whether he's fit for command. Harsh perhaps, but professional at least.
- Appointing an ensign with 6 months experience as a navigator to be your chief engineer instead of appointing him to be your liaison with the new, actually qualified and experienced, chief engineer
- Spock getting defensive over a new science officer when the ship has a dozen science officers
- Khan being Caucasian - while I liked the different spin on the character, I disliked the unintentionally hilarious homage to TWoK. It rang completely hollow because the Kirk/Spock friendship doesn't have the same depth and they had already teased that the death would be reversible.
- Khan's magic blood felt a bit too magical for someone who is basically human.
- As if interstellar beaming wasn't bad enough, you can now do it with a portable power source, not only to a location inside enemy territory but onto enemy home worlds.
- Short range communicators being used for long range interstellar communication, without being detected, with no additional effort required.
- Kirk pulling a Troi and trying to fix the ship himself because ordering someone qualified to do it would make him look mean to the audience - would have been a good way to kill Scotty's replacement too! Plus, kicking the ship better (which was at least, lampooned in the third movie)
- Disrespectful exit for one of the only recurring female characters from TOS, who, as seen in SNW, could easily have been a very fun character to develop if the writers weren't so sexist.
The good stuff:
- Pike's death was genuinely heart wrenching
- I liked that they side-stepped Carol as a love interest
- the cast is universally awesome
- it's a fun roller coaster ride
I've said this before but a lot of the silliness for me might have alleviated if they had used Garth of Izar instead of Khan. This ticks the boxes for me because:
- He's a tactical genius as needed by Marcus
- He's unstable due to the genetic changes made to him to save his life
- Said genetic changes would tick the other boxes required for the movie - shape changing so that his true identity is masked, rapid healing, wanting to free his friends (perhaps other nut cases from the asylum)
- Assuming that Kirk dies somehow. When restored, Kirk still has to face the possibility that his mind might be affected by exposure to the genetically altered blood
Overall, I enjoyed the potential of the Kelvinverse but they kicked my expectations in the 'nads five or six times too often for me to get fully behind the franchise.
Key among the problems for me are:
- Kirk's ongoing unsuitability as a captain - this is dealt with in the story but I struggle with the way the crew not only remain loyal to a moron but admire his lack of common sense. Some one reminded me recently that in TMP, McCoy keeps popping onto the bridge to keep an eye on Kirk and assess whether he's fit for command. Harsh perhaps, but professional at least.
- Appointing an ensign with 6 months experience as a navigator to be your chief engineer instead of appointing him to be your liaison with the new, actually qualified and experienced, chief engineer
- Spock getting defensive over a new science officer when the ship has a dozen science officers
- Khan being Caucasian - while I liked the different spin on the character, I disliked the unintentionally hilarious homage to TWoK. It rang completely hollow because the Kirk/Spock friendship doesn't have the same depth and they had already teased that the death would be reversible.
- Khan's magic blood felt a bit too magical for someone who is basically human.
- As if interstellar beaming wasn't bad enough, you can now do it with a portable power source, not only to a location inside enemy territory but onto enemy home worlds.
- Short range communicators being used for long range interstellar communication, without being detected, with no additional effort required.
- Kirk pulling a Troi and trying to fix the ship himself because ordering someone qualified to do it would make him look mean to the audience - would have been a good way to kill Scotty's replacement too! Plus, kicking the ship better (which was at least, lampooned in the third movie)
- Disrespectful exit for one of the only recurring female characters from TOS, who, as seen in SNW, could easily have been a very fun character to develop if the writers weren't so sexist.
The good stuff:
- Pike's death was genuinely heart wrenching
- I liked that they side-stepped Carol as a love interest
- the cast is universally awesome
- it's a fun roller coaster ride
I've said this before but a lot of the silliness for me might have alleviated if they had used Garth of Izar instead of Khan. This ticks the boxes for me because:
- He's a tactical genius as needed by Marcus
- He's unstable due to the genetic changes made to him to save his life
- Said genetic changes would tick the other boxes required for the movie - shape changing so that his true identity is masked, rapid healing, wanting to free his friends (perhaps other nut cases from the asylum)
- Assuming that Kirk dies somehow. When restored, Kirk still has to face the possibility that his mind might be affected by exposure to the genetically altered blood
Overall, I enjoyed the potential of the Kelvinverse but they kicked my expectations in the 'nads five or six times too often for me to get fully behind the franchise.
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I just think it’s a lazy film bordering on character assassination as far as Kirk’s characterization goes. I like the idea of addressing that Kirk was promoted too fast, but I don’t like the way it was ultimately executed, along with Kirk acting like dude bro. One of the most relieving things about BEYOND is that we actually got to see Pine play a much more mature Kirk who doesn’t feel like the butt end of a joke like he did with Orci/Kurtzman’s take.
Kirk made perfect sense to me.
I think it gets an unnecessary kicking from fans while Beyond gets way too much love.
The main gripe for me is that Cumberbatch is playing Khan and they lazily decided to kill Kirk off but bring him back moments later. It was pretty rubbish.
If Cumberbatch had been playing a new villain, manipulated by Starfleet, and they didn't kill/ bring back Kirk within minutes and got rid of the Tribbles stuff then you would probably be looking at easily the best of the Kelvinverse films.
It's still easily a four star movie for me though, if those elements had been removed then it would have been 5/5 instead.
The main gripe for me is that Cumberbatch is playing Khan and they lazily decided to kill Kirk off but bring him back moments later. It was pretty rubbish.
If Cumberbatch had been playing a new villain, manipulated by Starfleet, and they didn't kill/ bring back Kirk within minutes and got rid of the Tribbles stuff then you would probably be looking at easily the best of the Kelvinverse films.
It's still easily a four star movie for me though, if those elements had been removed then it would have been 5/5 instead.
Agreed.