decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

[Elias Vaughn]

And even if it weren't, are we sure the idea of third party arbitration being legally binding wasn't part of Bajoran law?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Irrelevant; the competing parties do not have standing to determine the state's jurisdiction. This is clearly a matter for Bajoran courts to determine, and Sisko should have kicked it over to them.

In real life, arbitration is a thing.

As for why it wouldn't be a Bajoran law thing, it involves a citizen of Cardassia and potentially two citizens of Cardassia depending on how we view Rugal.

I.e. not just Bajoran law but an interplanetary incident.

 

[Sci]

In real life, arbitration is a thing.

And nothing in the episode establishes why the commanding officer of a foreign base located on Bajoran territory would be the arbiter. Think about how ridiculous it would be if a custody dispute over a Russian child left behind after the fall of the Soviet Union and adopted by German parents were to be decided by the commanding officer of Ramstein Air Base.

As for why it wouldn't be a Bajoran law thing, it involves a citizen of Cardassia and potentially two citizens of Cardassia depending on how we view Rugal.

So what? Bajor is a sovereign state and the adjudication of custody disputes over children left on its territory is the right of the Bajoran state, not of the Cardassian state.

 

[Charles Phipps]

And nothing in the episode establishes why the commanding officer of a foreign base located on Bajoran territory would be the arbiter. Think about how ridiculous it would be if a custody dispute over a Russian child left behind after the fall of the Soviet Union and adopted by German parents were to be decided by the commanding officer of Ramstein Air Base.

Like 90 different things established in the episode says why:

* Its a political hot potato
* The Bajoran government is joining the Federation.
* The Federation is the only party both the Cardassians and Bajorans would view as a third party.
* "Bajoran sovereignty" is not yet an issue anyone is fighting the Federation over.
* Sisko is a local religious figure.
* Rugal's adoption is potentially illegal (which Sisko eventually found as such) and is a Cardassian citizen, not a Bajoran one.
* Rugal's status as a Bajoran national is questionable as is as the children of occupying enemy forces.
* The question of bias in Bajoran courts.
* It's within the rights of Bajorans to pass it along rather than desire to deal with it. Which I suspect they did it for bias reasons.

So what? Bajor is a sovereign state and the adjudication of custody disputes over children left on its territory is the right of the Bajoran state, not of the Cardassian state.

That's frankly not a legal argument that remotely would go without challenge, and would be challenged repeatedly. If an American child was left in Vietnam with a Vietnamese couple during the Vietnam War, American courts will definitely say the child is an American citizen and needs to be given back to American parents and can/would challenge it to happen in an American court.

And yes, diplomats WOULD get involved.

 

[Tosk]

In real life, arbitration is a thing.

Sorry, nine years is outside the Bajoran statute of limitations on replies.

 

[Relayer1]

I've been meaning to, I hear it's quite good, but I haven't gotten to it yet. Just the visual on the cover is quite... morbid and sets a tone all by itself.

I purchased it out of habit / for completeness. The subject matter is not very appealing so it sat on my pile for some considerable time.

I eventually read it. It's not "quite good", it's absolutely fantastic. One of the finest tie-in novels I've ever read and more than worth the effort.

I then backtracked Una's other novels, not all of which are Trek related. She's wonderful.

 

[Oddish]

The legal issues aside, it still sucks to be Rugal. Trapped in a totalitarian society run by those who decimated those he sees as his people, and trashed the world he sees as his home. Add that to your list of Trek fates worse than death...

 

[kkt]

The legal issues aside, it still sucks to be Rugal. Trapped in a totalitarian society run by those who decimated those he sees as his people, and trashed the world he sees as his home. Add that to your list of Trek fates worse than death...

Yes, I'd be tempted to grow up and then move to some other place that's neither Cardassian nor Bajoran.

 

[Orphalesion]

Rugal is one of those things where the 90s Trek formula really was problematic. His story wasn't over at the end of the episodes, yet we would never see him again.

(and yes, I know there's probably something in the novelverse about him, I don't care)

 

[Oddish]

He probably spent the rest of his life bitterly regretting chomping Garak.

 

[Orphalesion]

He probably spent the rest of his life bitterly regretting chomping Garak.

Maybe that wasn't even very long. There's a chance that he was among the 800+ million Cardassian civilians slaughtered at the end of the Dominion War.

 

[trekfan_1]

Whether you believe the decision was right or wrong, in real life the court doesn't always get it right.

For this reason I don't get to worked up about it. Personally though perhaps shared custody until he is old enough to do and go where he pleases would of been fair.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe that wasn't even very long. There's a chance that he was among the 800+ million Cardassian civilians slaughtered at the end of the Dominion War.

Or that the Obsidian Order or the local secret police dragged him off long before that.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Or that the Obsidian Order or the local secret police dragged him off long before that.

Thankfully, the Obsidian Order was gone pretty quickly afterward.

But yes, the Rugal story is one that is fascinating because there's no decent answer.

 

[Lynx]

I've just watched again the second season episode "Cardassians" paying closer attention to the boy's fate than I did the first time round, and I still can't get my head around how the decision was reached to send him "home" to Cardassia.

We don't know how old Rugal is supposed to be but he looks about fifteen. He was orphaned at the age of four. He has never even seen his home planet as he wasn't born there.
So Cardassia isn't his home in any meaningful sense of the word, and the only close familial bonds are those forged with his adotive parents.

Of course you have to sympathize with Pa'Dar, but after all that time he simply has no right to claim Rugal like a possession. Well, according to his own understanding, he does, since one assumes in Cardassian society, the blood claim trumps all others, and the technicality of biological relation can't be denied. However, Rugal was legally adopted under Bajoran law, which was the only law applying at the time, and he is now on a joint Bajoran-Federation run station where Cardassian law also has no authority.

Most importantly, what about Rugal's feelings in the matter??
Surely these should be considered above all else, and it is obvious where he wants to stay.

We're not shown how the final decision is actually reached, but Sisko's justification for it in his logbook entry sounds lame and unconvincing. Rugal has been "the victim of a conspiracy" - true - and it is "time for his healing to begin".

Excuse me?? How does it help the boy to be ripped out of the only familiar environment he knows, to be taken away from people who care for him and have shown him nothing but love and affection? The conspiracy has nothing to do with anything as far as his wellbeing is concerned, and there can be precious little good to come out of a relationship with a father who shows up in your life like an officially sanctioned kidnapper.
According to the much vaunted Federation ethic, Rugal's welfare and therefore his own stated wishes should have been the prime consideration and guiding principle here. The Federation certainly doesn't subscribe to Cardassian notions of right and wrong in matters of jurisdiction. That's why I can't for the life of me understand this judgement. It seems to go against the Federation's own ideals - i.e. no coercion, no individuals made to suffer intentionally.

Was Rugal just used as a kind of diplomatic bartering chip, a goodwill gesture,as it were, to an uneasy ally? ...
...Certainly, Rugal should have learned something of his heritage beyond the crimes that his people committed, and it would be good for him to get to know some of his blood relatives. However I believe this should have taken the form of arranging visits by them on Bajor, or on the station. Simply taking him off to live with effective strangers in a strange place can only be traumatizing and there's no reasonable justification for it.

I must say that I was also surprised over the turn of the events.

I mean, if someone had come up and told me when I was about 15 that those I always had regarded as my parents weren't my parents and that I actually did belong to a people which had oppressed the people which I saw as my people, then I would have been hysterical. Being me, I would probably never have accepted that and I would have try to run away from my new "home" as soon as possible and as many times as possible until I finally succeded.

That's seen from my own point of view.

I think that Rugal's welfare and wishes should have had priority in this case.

Isn't there a book about Rugal? I have to read that one!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Isn't there a book about Rugal?!

The Never Ending Sacrifice

 

[Sci]

And nothing in the episode establishes why the commanding officer of a foreign base located on Bajoran territory would be the arbiter. Think about how ridiculous it would be if a custody dispute over a Russian child left behind after the fall of the Soviet Union and adopted by German parents were to be decided by the commanding officer of Ramstein Air Base.

Like 90 different things established in the episode says why:

* Its a political hot potato

Courts are for political hot potatoes, not foreign military base commanders.

* The Bajoran government is joining the Federation.

It has applied to join. The application is pending.

* The Federation is the only party both the Cardassians and Bajorans would view as a third party.

Not to get too pedantic, but any foreign state would be a third party in this dispute: The Klingon Empire, the Ferengi Alliance, the Romulan Star Empire, the Talarian Republic, the Tzenkethi Coalition, etc.

* "Bajoran sovereignty" is not yet an issue anyone is fighting the Federation over.

Bajoran sovereignty is a recurring conflict in most of the first two seasons! Did you not see the "Circle" trilogy?

* Sisko is a local religious figure.

This might be valid, but there's no line of dialogue that says this.

* Rugal's adoption is potentially illegal (which Sisko eventually found as such) and is a Cardassian citizen, not a Bajoran one.

Which is, again, a matter for the court system of the territory in which this crime allegedly occurred to decide. That's how court systems work.

* Rugal's status as a Bajoran national is questionable as is as the children of occupying enemy forces.

Which is, again, a matter for the Bajoran courts to decide.

* The question of bias in Bajoran courts.

How is there any less bias in from an officer of a Bajoran military ally?

* It's within the rights of Bajorans to pass it along rather than desire to deal with it.

Sure, but in real life that would not be an issue there would be consensus on. The idea of letting a foreign military base commander adjudicate the dispute instead of handing it off to the courts would be an extremely contentious issue. Recently-colonized nations do not tend to want large imperial powers making these kinds of decisions for them.

So what? Bajor is a sovereign state and the adjudication of custody disputes over children left on its territory is the right of the Bajoran state, not of the Cardassian state.

That's frankly not a legal argument that remotely would go without challenge, and would be challenged repeatedly.

The Cardassian Union can "challenge" it all they want; their "challenge" doesn't mean shit unless they're prepared to use military force. The Bajoran Republic is a sovereign state and has the right to decide for itself how to adjudicate this dispute -- and if such adjudication gets handed to the commander of a foreign military base, it is only by the authority of Bajor, not by the authority of the Federation.

If an American child was left in Vietnam with a Vietnamese couple during the Vietnam War, American courts will definitely say the child is an American citizen and needs to be given back to American parents and can/would challenge it to happen in an American court.

And yes, diplomats WOULD get involved.

Sure they would. And they would quickly find that they have no authority in Vietnam and no authority over Vietnamese courts.

Edited to add:

But hey. Let's go with this (ridiculous and unrealistic) idea that the Bajoran government would be willing to let a foreign power adjudicate this dispute instead of asserting Bajoran sovereignty over crimes committed on their own territory.

Why would they have a Starfleet starbase commander adjudicate this issue? Why wouldn't they request that a Federation judge or panel of judges adjudicate the dispute instead?

 

[at Quark's]

Why would they have a Starfleet starbase commander adjudicate this issue? Why wouldn't they request that a Federation judge or panel of judges adjudicate the dispute instead?

For the same reason Starfleet asks him to command a station, lead huge fleets against the dominion, invade as an expert spy operative in the highest Klingon circles, lead all kinds of first-contact situations, be a diplomat in negotiations with other powers, explore the Gamma Quadrant, be a liasion between Bajor and the Federation ... and the Bajorans expect him to be a religious icon, their point of entrance to the Federation, their guarantee against the Cardassians, etc .... the guy is simply an expert in everything!

 

[Sci]

For the same reason Starfleet asks him to command a station, lead huge fleets against the dominion, invade as an expert spy operative in the highest Klingon circles, lead all kinds of first-contact situations, be a diplomat in negotiations with other powers, explore the Gamma Quadrant, be a liasion between Bajor and the Federation ... and the Bajorans expect him to be a religious icon, their point of entrance to the Federation, their guarantee against the Cardassians, etc .... the guy is simply an expert in everything!

Uh-huh.

 

[Oddish]

I just rewatched the episode, and it does make more sense now. Since this was a clash of two alien cultures with very different laws, the situation called for arbitration, a decision made by an outsider who was deemed acceptable to both parties. Rugal's adoptive father suggested Sisko because he was neither Cardassian nor Bajoran. Sisko himself pointed out to his biological father that the Federation was allied with Bajor in this matter, but the latter said that he was a father, and was confident that he would decide fairly. And, while I don't personally agree with Sisko's decision, I believe that he did attempt to do so.

This episode was made about the time of the highly controversial "Baby Jessica" case, where a court ruled that a biological father who abandoned the mother still had parental rights. It, or similar cases, might have inspired this episode.