Did the Klingons kill their gods?

[Citiprime]

Worf says ancient Klingon warriors killed their gods in an episode of Deep Space Nine because "they were more trouble than they were worth." It's meant as a contrast to Kira's faith in the Prophets, and in the moment it seems more like a legend or folk story. But I've always wondered watching that whether there might be some truth in it.

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Since this is a universe where the Greek gods existed and were aliens, is it possible the ancient Klingons were able to pull what Kirk did to Apollo and slay some aliens that were masquerading as gods? Or maybe the Greek gods visited Qo'noS too?

I always thought it might be an interesting connection that maybe the reason for the Vulcan and Romulan names were that the Greek gods visited ancient Vulcan too.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There's a recent book by Francesca Stavrakopoulou, God : An Anatomy, that argues rather convincingly that the Biblical god had a body and a corporeality as understood by ancient peoples. She does this by comparing descriptions of other Near Middle Eastern deities, looking at depictions from archeology, as well as some textual criticism, to show not only how physical he could be, but how he could have physical needs and desires like humans. He hungers, for instance. It's only later, especially with the encounter between early Christianity and Neo-Platonic thought, that the body is reinterpreted as being metaphor, and he is an entirely metaphysical being. References to seeing his face are retranslated as feeling his presence.

If we accept that the metaphysical god is a later invention, we should be able to accept that the Klingons killed their gods. They could equally have bodies like Klingons, albeit exaggerated. I also think there is some poetry in the notion that they took all the noble qualities of the gods for themselves.

 

[The Wormhole]

It could be anything to a metaphor to an exaggeration of a time when powerful aliens visited Qo'Nos and were not welcomed by the Klingons. Of course the ultimate irony is that despite apparently killing their gods, the Klingons deified Kahless anyway to the point he serves a similar role in Klingon culture to a god or a prophet.

 

[Orac]

Star Trek tells fictional stories, occasionally those stories propose what if some ancient fictional stories were true. In Deep Space Nine, it's the central premise of the programme. So sure, why not?

 

[NCC-73515]

With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why have you weakened so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation. And the heart said: 'I am alone.' And the gods knew that they had erred. So they went back to their forge and brought forth another heart. But the second heart beat stronger than the first, and the first was jealous of its power. Fortunately, the second heart was tempered by wisdom: If we join together, no force can stop us.' And when the two hearts began to beat together, they filled the heavens with a terrible sound. For the first time, the gods knew fear. They tried to flee, but it was too late. The Klingon hearts destroyed the gods who created them and turned the heavens to ashes. To this very day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts.

 

[Farscape One]

Maybe it's as simple as the Klingons literally getting rid of their gods from their theology. They did say they were 'more trouble than they were worth'.

I think they have it right. Imagine how much less bloody our own history would be if we didn't have gods or goddesses. Think of how many troubles would be gone today without them. People wouldn't be able to use religion as a reason to hurt or kill or use against people's personal rights.

 

[publiusr]

If I could get my hands on whatever imp causes me bad luck—it wouldn’t be pretty

 

[at Quark's]

I always liked that aspect of Klingon mythology (regardless of whether there's a historical kernal of truth to it, defeating more advanced aliens, or not). It shows that the Klingons are no meek and subservient creatures and that even 'gods' are not safe from them, simply because they're supposed to be 'god'.

Whether one should interpret the mythology in the culture/era that saw its formation as a sign of progression (taking your destiny into your own hands) or regression (societal organization and orderly structures of power breaking down) is another debate. But I happened to like it as a story element.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think they have it right. Imagine how much less bloody our own history would be if we didn't have gods or goddesses. Think of how many troubles would be gone today without them. People wouldn't be able to use religion as a reason to hurt or kill or use against people's personal rights.

Meh, if it weren't religion, we'd find some other excuse hurt, kill or violate people's rights, both historically and in the present day.

 

[Jayson1]

Depends on how much you think "Barge of the Dead" really happened on Voyager it is possible the Klingon Gods were God Gods and not just advanced aliens or fictional people maybe based on real people or maybe just made up.

 

[FormerLurker]

I've long wondered if the reference was to the Klingons throwing off the oppression and enslavement forced on them by the Hur'q. The Hur'q fleeing with the sword of Kahless is the sort of thing oppressors do when their yoke is thrown off.

 

[Farscape One]

Meh, if it weren't religion, we'd find some other excuse hurt, kill or violate people's rights, both historically and in the present day.

I never said it would be a bloodless history. Just a lot less bloody. We very well might come up with another excuse, but it's hard to imagine.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Meh, if it weren't religion, we'd find some other excuse hurt, kill or violate people's rights, both historically and in the present day.

Exactly. My faith motivates me to love and reach out to others (albeit imperfectly, always). I know myself outside of faith, how inwardly & deeply self-centered I would be - while acknowledging that I still have a looooooooooong way to go as a work-in-progress til the day I die. But we've seen countless examples of violence where religion had nothing to do with it (even on the global scale with the USSR).

And likewise we've seen countless examples where religion was weaponized for political ends, where a skewed version of so-called "Christianity" (for example) becomes virtually unrecognizable from the 1st-century faith of Jesus' disciples. So in the scenario of a world without religion, violence would definitely continue, and very possibly get worse.

 

[at Quark's]

I never said it would be a bloodless history. Just a lot less bloody. We very well might come up with another excuse, but it's hard to imagine.

Perhaps, but perhaps the difference would be smaller than you think. I wonder how many wars were really fought solely out of religious fervor and for no other reasons. I mean, there were such wars, but I think in most cases religion was a convenient excuse for other, baser sounding motives and those wars would have happened anyway.

Having said that, religion is pretty much the perfect excuse of course and it would be hard to find a more effective one.

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

Now I am picturing the ancient Klingons uncovering a buried Iconian gateway and putting together a small, ragtag band of warriors and scientists to travel through the gateway to other worlds, eventually to defeat their former alien occupiers who had posed as gods.

Gateway: GW-1

 

[MAGolding]

I have a theory that Klingons might have been uplifed (or in their case maybe downlowered) to be what they are by an advanced civilization, to serve as the phaser fodder of the more advance dcivilization. Sort of like the Jem'Hadar to the Dominion.

And possibly the Klingons revolted agains their rulers, and overthrew them, and massacred many, though we can hope that many escaped and have been building up their military power for many millennia, hoping for the time when they can strike back and extrerminate the Klingons.

 

[publiusr]

I wonder if the uniforms of the Ogrons from Dr. Who inspired—or was inspired by the Klingons:

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Ogron

 

[MAGolding]

I wonder if the uniforms of the Ogrons from Dr. Who inspired—or was inspired by the Klingons:

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Ogron

The rather Human looking Klingons first appeared in "Errand of Mercy" in the spring of 1967. The first of the less human and more alien types of Kliingons appeared in TMP in 1979.

The Daleks first appeared in the 1963-64 season of Dr.Who. The Ogrons first appeared in "Day of the Daleks" Januury 1 to 22, 1972. So their uniforms could have been inspired by those of TOS Klingons or inspired later Klingon uniforms.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I imagine it's a metaphor for casting religion aside.

I always thought it might be an interesting connection that maybe the reason for the Vulcan and Romulan names were that the Greek gods visited ancient Vulcan too.

I thought that's just what humans call them (and by extension the UT)? I'm sure Vulcans/Romulans have their own words for themselves and their worlds.

 

[Timofnine]

Didn’t the Ferengi crash\land on to the Klingon homeworld once upon a time and the Klingon’s backward engineered all the crashed tech and equipment that they had? Maybe the Ferengi were once the Klingon Gods when they made first contact… but obviously the Klingon’s ‘slayed’ them?
As for the original mythological gods… I wonder who wants to take on this bad boy??

Kahless himself no doubt!!!