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FACT TREK—The Great Bird Of the Radio, 1974

Maurice

Snagglepussed
Admiral
Stories change over time and with repetition, so it’s important to preserve early accounts wherever possible. Case in point, a radio interview with Gene Roddenberry recorded only 4.5 years after the Star Trek went off the air, and only months after the premier of its Saturday morning follow-up.

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It was January 1974 and a young DJ named Scott Arthur at WARM radio in Scranton, Pennsylvania learned that Roddenberry was scheduled to speak at a local college. “I got his phone number and set up an interview to promote the event in advance.” Decades later, Arthur found the raw recording and allowed it to be shared online, and it's been on YouTube since 2013.

When someone recently re-shared that interview we decided to give it the FACT TREK treatment. We immediately located the original interviewer and asked him if we might pretty please with sugar on have his blessing to share it. He graciously said yes.

Value-added historians that we are, we’ve decided to not only share the recording, and not merely transcribe the entire interview, but to annotate it and add historical context.

Some takeaways from this interview:
  • Pretty squarely says he conceived of an alien character with Nimoy in mind
  • Addresses the issue of having heroic characters as opposed to the 60s TV idea of an antihero
  • States the Enterprise was named for the WWII USS Enterprise CV-6, not the nuclear CVN-65
  • Addresses why the then-new The Exorcist was so successful
  • Bits about Genesis II and Planet Earth

Here's the full interview (link).

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@Harvey did the transcribing, I did the legwork of tracking down Scott Arthur and putting all the images and notes together.​
 
Thanks for posting this, really interesting!
Wondered what TV shows GR was referring to with anti-heroes?
I had forgotten the Enterprise was named for the ship that turned the tide in the battle of Midway in WW2 ... Seems the concept of a future peaceful, democratic world was inseparable in his mind from the naval /military command structure. Not sure what to make of that.
 
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Wondered what TV shows GR was referring to with anti-heroes?
I wondered about that, too. While anti-heroes were definitely a thing in 1960s film -- Clint Eastwood's 'Man with No Name' character(s) from the Sergio Leone Westerns would be a prominent example -- it's harder to think of any from 1960s television.
 
Thanks for the article. Interesting to get a look at a Roddenberry interview from the time his post-Trek sci-fi pilots were coming out. The bit from Variety claiming the network was developing a second Questor movie retooled as a solo piece is interesting. I'd heard that was the network's plan for the Questor weekly series, to dump Jerry Robinson, undo the movie's ending, and do the show as a Fugitive clone instead of the "Assignment: Earth, take three" approach Roddenberry intended (which was reportedly why Roddenberry walked away and killed the series plans). But I'd never heard that it might have been a second movie instead.

Incidentally, has your research turned up anything about who the makeup artist was on Planet Earth? The film doesn't have a makeup credit, and I'm curious who designed the Kreeg makeup, which seemed to be a prototype for TMP's Klingon redesign. It's plausible that it could've been TOS/TMP makeup artist Fred Phillips, but the makeup on Genesis II was by Thomas R. Burman. And Philips's credited filmography for 1974 is pretty full, so I don't know if he would've been available.


Seems the concept of a future peaceful, democratic world was inseparable in his mind from the naval /military command structure. Not sure what to make of that.

I would imagine Roddenberry saw the military the same way he saw the police, another armed organization he'd formerly belonged to: as an institution responsible for keeping the peace and protecting the public from those who would cause harm. He'd fought in WWII, a conflict perceived as being about preserving freedom and democracy against aggressors seeking to eradicate them. So it makes sense he'd believe that peace and prosperity are only possible if there's someone to fend off the bullies and predators. Or as McCoy put it in a Roddenberry-scripted episode ("The Omega Glory"), "I've found that evil usually triumphs unless good is very, very careful."


I wondered about that, too. While anti-heroes were definitely a thing in 1960s film -- Clint Eastwood's 'Man with No Name' character(s) from the Sergio Leone Westerns would be a prominent example -- it's harder to think of any from 1960s television.

Napoleon Solo from The Man from UNCLE might qualify, since he was a very James Bond-type character, a womanizing spy who could be ruthless when necessary -- at least before they camped up the show in later seasons. Dan Briggs from the first season of Mission: Impossible was also kind of a cold, ruthless spymaster at times, not as avuncular as his successor Jim Phelps.
 
Some takeaways from this interview:
  • Pretty squarely says he conceived of an alien character with Nimoy in mind
Take that, Martin Landau!

Thanks for this and also for the transcript. I have a hard time listening to Roddenberry's voice. He always sounds awkward.
 
Thank you so much for this.

Fascinating. Gene sounds unusually bare and relaxed. He seems quite honest and free of the self-aggrandising bluster or glory hogging.

I think he's charming. Gene eh? You read one thing, you love him and the next thing... but here he's perfectly charming, erudite, philosophical and positive.
 
Napoleon Solo from The Man from UNCLE might qualify, since he was a very James Bond-type character, a womanizing spy who could be ruthless when necessary -- at least before they camped up the show in later seasons. Dan Briggs from the first season of Mission: Impossible was also kind of a cold, ruthless spymaster at times, not as avuncular as his successor Jim Phelps.

The whole MI team was antiheroes. Everything they did was in morally gray territory. Did they fight "bad guys"? Sure, for the most part. But they broke laws and killed people and did things that, if it were known about, would ensure "the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of their actions."

The inverse situation is John Drake, who was the goodest of goods, employed by folks with the same morals as the MI team, maybe worse. It's no wonder he resigned...
 
The whole MI team was antiheroes. Everything they did was in morally gray territory. Did they fight "bad guys"? Sure, for the most part. But they broke laws and killed people and did things that, if it were known about, would ensure "the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of their actions."

Mission: Impossible was basically more a heist/caper show than a spy show, inspired by Topkapi and the like. But network censors wouldn't allow portraying criminals as protagonists, so they had to be intelligence agents pulling their scams and heists against enemy countries, terrorists, and mobsters in the name of global peace and security.

Still, the IMF was officially banned from committing overt assassination, as spelled out in the pilot. Hence the need for the elaborate capers and schemes to stymie the bad guys' plans. As a rule, they only shot people in self-defense. However, sometimes their stratagems were designed to maneuver the marks into killing each other, or to make a government official appear to be a traitor so he'd get killed by his superiors. So it was rather hypocritical to treat that as different from assassination.

I wouldn't really call the IMF team antiheroes, though, since they had very little personality of their own, mostly subsuming themselves into the roles they played. And when they did show their own personality, they were always played as friendly, likeable people and loyal friends. I think making moral compromises as a spy isn't really being an antihero, because that's more about the demands of the job than about who a person is. What makes James Bond an antihero is how much he seems to relish the dark things he does. The IMF characters were just doing a job, meticulously and dispassionately.
 
The spy shows that didn't have agents killing people would be short.

It was somewhat the reverse with Mission: Impossible, since (again) the justification for the long, elaborate capers was that the IMF wasn't allowed to just assassinate people.

Indeed, I don't agree there is any correlation between story length and kill count, since most spy stories aren't just about gunplay, but entail investigation, infiltration, pursuit, capture, escape, and the like (often with a romance/seduction on the side). I think those would take a fair amount of time regardless of whether the spies kill their enemies or just outwit them. That's the whole reason to put all that stuff in a spy story -- to fill out the hour (or two, if it's a movie). And in The Man from UNCLE particularly, a key part of the plot formula was "the innocent," the civilian who got drawn into the affair and had to be protected. So those stories were often more about saving a life than taking lives.

One thing I quite liked about Mission: Impossible: Fallout was how strong a contrast it drew between Henry Cavill's character ruthlessly assassinating people and Ethan Hunt trying to save lives and avoid fatalities. It shows you can do a spy story where the protagonists are not as bad as their enemies.
 
Seems the concept of a future peaceful, democratic world was inseparable in his mind from the naval /military command structure. Not sure what to make of that.

Just an American-centric view of peace and what it would take to get it.
 
The whole MI team was antiheroes. Everything they did was in morally gray territory. Did they fight "bad guys"? Sure, for the most part. But they broke laws and killed people and did things that, if it were known about, would ensure "the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of their actions."

The inverse situation is John Drake, who was the goodest of goods, employed by folks with the same morals as the MI team, maybe worse. It's no wonder he resigned...

You're assume that Drake was the protagonist of The Prisoner, which as far as I know is uncertain.
 
Mission: Impossible was basically more a heist/caper show than a spy show, inspired by Topkapi and the like. But network censors wouldn't allow portraying criminals as protagonists, so they had to be intelligence agents pulling their scams and heists against enemy countries, terrorists, and mobsters in the name of global peace and security.

Still, the IMF was officially banned from committing overt assassination, as spelled out in the pilot. Hence the need for the elaborate capers and schemes to stymie the bad guys' plans. As a rule, they only shot people in self-defense. However, sometimes their stratagems were designed to maneuver the marks into killing each other, or to make a government official appear to be a traitor so he'd get killed by his superiors. So it was rather hypocritical to treat that as different from assassination.

I wouldn't really call the IMF team antiheroes, though, since they had very little personality of their own, mostly subsuming themselves into the roles they played. And when they did show their own personality, they were always played as friendly, likeable people and loyal friends. I think making moral compromises as a spy isn't really being an antihero, because that's more about the demands of the job than about who a person is. What makes James Bond an antihero is how much he seems to relish the dark things he does. The IMF characters were just doing a job, meticulously and dispassionately.

Reposted from the 'Classic/Retro Rewatch' Thread. This comes from the opening chapter of 'The Complete Mission: Impossible Dossier' book.

David Geller wrote two drafts for what would become “Mission: Impossible”

In the first draft, “Briggs’ Squad” was described as thus . . .

“. . . Formerly a Special Forces group that performed wartime missions”, “often incredibly hazardous and totally without reward because the government of the United States must disavow any knowledge of these particular activities. Once, in a country in a crisis, the group of men . . . were pulled together to do a job. It was the first job of five years work under the leadership of Lt. Col. David Briggs, for what had come to be known, unofficially, to the few men who knew of its existence, as “Briggs’ Squad”.

The team consisted of Albert Ney, a wheeler-dealer “who never owns anything longer than it takes to turn over a profit”; Jack Smith, who “does not know what a woman means by the word “No,” never – not once in his life – ever having heard it”; Barney Collier (Greg Morris), “expert at ballistics, demolition, submarine vessels,” possessor of a “graduate degree in bioelectric chemical engineering, permutative mathematics, microphysics”, and “a cheating 21 dealer and compulsive gambler”; Willy “The Arm” Armitage (Peter Lupus), “ugly, ill-educated, inept,” “possibly the strongest man in the world”, and “a woman-beating strip joint bouncer”; “Little” Terry Targo (Wally Cox), a mild-mannered martial arts expert, “three time felony offender,” and professional hit man; and Martin Land (Martin Landau), “a master of disguise, quick change, a superb pickpocket, fluent in fifteen languages, able to hold his breath for six or seven minutes,” and, above all a master magician and thief.

Their leader is David (later Dan) Briggs (Steven Hill), who explains his team, “I once led them, and, for better or for worse, I turned them into what they are . . . In each case I have made them unfit to live like normal human beings. Call it because of a death wish, a compulsion, a streak of larceny, competitive instinct, a desire for adventure, or just the lure for life, one way or another, each of them seems destined to end up in the electric chair or serving a long term in prison – unless – unless I, the responsible party, can channel all this that I have made . . . I am a PhD in analytical psychology and highly paid as a behavioral analyst. All this means is that I am an expert in human being, i.e., one of the world’s greatest guessers.”

The mission as described in the first draft of “Briggs’ Squad” would have the squad use a WWII Japanese midget submarine to board a yacht, surrounded by three destroyers, containing the stolen wealth of the Indies and steal it back for the country.

This story and the characters Albert Ney and Jack Smith were dropped when Geller wrote the second draft, which would become the script and pilot episode of “Mission: Impossible”.

To replace Albert Ney and Jack Smith, Geller created Cinnamon (Barbara Bain), “an absolutely stunning woman in her twenties” who is “a total waste of a woman. Hooked on alcohol and narcotics.”

Geller added, “This group of men may attempt anything. Briggs’ Squad may have to be given a semiofficial status (unknown to any of them but Briggs) by which they are performing their services for the United States government without any official aegis and with Briggs’ full awareness that if they are caught they will have to take the full rap as the government will not acknowledge any awareness of their existence.”

They are, “a private group, not a government group. It always works on the right side. It takes on delicate assignments for the government or anyone. Such as if the CIA doesn’t want to be directly involved in a case . . . Sometimes, because of circumstances, the FBI, New York police, or California sheriffs can’t enter into a situation – then they hire this group . . .”

The show was designed to only have three regular characters: Briggs, Cinnamon, and Barney. “Some missions require skills they don’t have,” said Geller, “so they go outside, and that’s when a guest star comes in.” A variety of “guest spies” . . . would be used when necessary. Some would even be killed in action to generate suspense.

By the time the pilot went to series, Willy had been added to the cast as regular and Martin Land was rechristened “Rollin Hand”, appearing as a “Special Guest Star” because Martin Landau did not want to be tied down to a series, as he felt it would hurt his movie career. Of course, he would be brought back throughout the first season as Steven Hill acted up and was eventually suspended from the series.

At the start of the second season, Steven Hill was replaced by Peter Graves as Jim Phelps, who “graduated from college, served in the Korean war, then on to a career with Pan Am Airways.” One day Jim came home to his New York apartment and found a message on his record player.

And that there, is the genesis of “Mission: Impossible” and its cast.
 
Reposted from the 'Classic/Retro Rewatch' Thread. This comes from the opening chapter of 'The Complete Mission: Impossible Dossier' book.

I need to find that book.


David Geller wrote two drafts for what would become “Mission: Impossible”

You mean Bruce Geller, right?


In the first draft, “Briggs’ Squad” was described as thus . . .

“. . . Formerly a Special Forces group that performed wartime missions”, “often incredibly hazardous and totally without reward because the government of the United States must disavow any knowledge of these particular activities. Once, in a country in a crisis, the group of men . . . were pulled together to do a job. It was the first job of five years work under the leadership of Lt. Col. David Briggs, for what had come to be known, unofficially, to the few men who knew of its existence, as “Briggs’ Squad”.

The team consisted of Albert Ney, a wheeler-dealer “who never owns anything longer than it takes to turn over a profit”; Jack Smith, who “does not know what a woman means by the word “No,” never – not once in his life – ever having heard it”; Barney Collier (Greg Morris), “expert at ballistics, demolition, submarine vessels,” possessor of a “graduate degree in bioelectric chemical engineering, permutative mathematics, microphysics”, and “a cheating 21 dealer and compulsive gambler”; Willy “The Arm” Armitage (Peter Lupus), “ugly, ill-educated, inept,” “possibly the strongest man in the world”, and “a woman-beating strip joint bouncer”; “Little” Terry Targo (Wally Cox), a mild-mannered martial arts expert, “three time felony offender,” and professional hit man; and Martin Land (Martin Landau), “a master of disguise, quick change, a superb pickpocket, fluent in fifteen languages, able to hold his breath for six or seven minutes,” and, above all a master magician and thief.

Their leader is David (later Dan) Briggs (Steven Hill), who explains his team, “I once led them, and, for better or for worse, I turned them into what they are . . . In each case I have made them unfit to live like normal human beings. Call it because of a death wish, a compulsion, a streak of larceny, competitive instinct, a desire for adventure, or just the lure for life, one way or another, each of them seems destined to end up in the electric chair or serving a long term in prison – unless – unless I, the responsible party, can channel all this that I have made . . . I am a PhD in analytical psychology and highly paid as a behavioral analyst. All this means is that I am an expert in human being, i.e., one of the world’s greatest guessers.”

Wow, now those are antiheroes! That seems to be a riff on The Dirty Dozen, very different from what we got. I'm not surprised the network didn't go for this version.

Cox's Terry Targo was in the pilot, but as a safe-cracker, not a hit man. And he suffered damage to his hands that, in addition to creating suspense by requiring Rollin to do his job instead, ensured that he would have to retire permanently from his life of crime. I assume the censors insisted on that because the rules of the day required that crime must not be shown to pay.


Geller added, “This group of men may attempt anything. Briggs’ Squad may have to be given a semiofficial status (unknown to any of them but Briggs) by which they are performing their services for the United States government without any official aegis and with Briggs’ full awareness that if they are caught they will have to take the full rap as the government will not acknowledge any awareness of their existence.”

They are, “a private group, not a government group. It always works on the right side. It takes on delicate assignments for the government or anyone. Such as if the CIA doesn’t want to be directly involved in a case . . . Sometimes, because of circumstances, the FBI, New York police, or California sheriffs can’t enter into a situation – then they hire this group . . .”

See, that's what I always figured, that they were a private, off-the-books operation to give the government deniability. A huge contrast with the movies where the IMF is an integral part of the CIA's bureaucracy, pretty much missing the entire point of disavowable operatives.

Of course, the show itself undermined this idea as soon as it started showing the team working hand-in-hand with law enforcement to go after mobsters or other stateside threats, something that was occasionally done as early as the first season, then became the regular focus in seasons 6-7.

The idea that they might occasionally be hired by law enforcement rather than the government is an interesting twist, although it wouldn't have fit with the formula of the Voice on Tape and the Secretary's disavowal in every episode. I guess the Voice could've been the broker assigning their missions, but then not all of the missions would've had the Secretary's oversight.


The show was designed to only have three regular characters: Briggs, Cinnamon, and Barney. “Some missions require skills they don’t have,” said Geller, “so they go outside, and that’s when a guest star comes in.” A variety of “guest spies” . . . would be used when necessary. Some would even be killed in action to generate suspense.

The first season did pretty much work this way, even more so than this description. Not one cast member appeared in all 28 episodes, because there was one that Briggs was written out of during the dispute with Steven Hill. Dan supervised in 27 episodes and was on the mission in 20. Rollin was in 26 episodes, Barney 25, Cinnamon 24, and Willy only 21. Early on, the guest agents tended to be fairly prominent actors/characters (Wally Cox, Albert Paulsen, Mary Ann Mobley), but became smaller supporting players as the season went on, the main exception being Eartha Kitt in the penultimate episode. The full five members of the main team are present in 15 episodes, and the greatest variation in team size and composition is toward the middle of the season. There are a few four-handers with guest agents, several three-handers, a couple of episodes with only two team members (Rollin and Cinnamon in "A Spool There Was," with offscreen help from Barney, and Rollin and Barney in "The Reluctant Dragon"), and one, "Elena," that's a solo mission for Rollin, albeit with the help of a guest character.


By the time the pilot went to series, Willy had been added to the cast as regular and Martin Land was rechristened “Rollin Hand”, appearing as a “Special Guest Star” because Martin Landau did not want to be tied down to a series, as he felt it would hurt his movie career. Of course, he would be brought back throughout the first season as Steven Hill acted up and was eventually suspended from the series.

No, Rollin was effectively a regular throughout the whole season, well before the problems with Hill started. The only episodes he wasn't in were numbers 12 and 14 in broadcast order. But once the problems with Hill began, Rollin was upgraded to the de facto series lead. He was always the central player on the missions where Briggs was not on the field team and appeared only in the initial briefing. And Rollin ran the whole mission in the episode that Briggs was written out of completely.

I believe they offered Landau a promotion to lead in season 2, but he didn't want to commit to more than one season at a time, so they brought in Peter Graves instead.


At the start of the second season, Steven Hill was replaced by Peter Graves as Jim Phelps, who “graduated from college, served in the Korean war, then on to a career with Pan Am Airways.” One day Jim came home to his New York apartment and found a message on his record player.

Hunh. I always figured Phelps was meant to be the same as Briggs, a retired intelligence agent. (The Voice on Tape in the pilot said "Welcome back" to Briggs, implying he'd left the CIA and been brought back into the game unofficially to lead the IMF.)

And... oh, man... Phelps was an airline pilot? That's something that plays very, very differently in the wake of Airplane! Oh, man.
 
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Guys. Can we pretty please not go off into Mission: Impossible discussion and stay on the topic? This instant topic drift keeps happening.
 
I still have my copy of the MI Dossier book. It's fantastic, more meticulous in-depth look at the show than any of the comparable STAR TREK ones.

Cox's Terry Targo was in the pilot, but as a safe-cracker, not a hit man. And he suffered damage to his hands that, in addition to creating suspense by requiring Rollin to do his job instead, ensured that he would have to retire permanently from his life of crime. I assume the censors insisted on that because the rules of the day required that crime must not be shown to pay.

It wasn't Rollin. It was Dan Briggs who had to complete the safe job with the actual dictator (Martin Landau in brownface) inside with him.

Rollin remains disguised as the dictator, Dominguez, on the outside as Dan works the real Dominguez to help him open the vault of nuclear warheads.

BACK ON TOPIC: Roddenberry and police

He apparently had a different view of what a future policeman would be in his STAR TREK II (aka THE GOD THING) script. He called them Mediators, who were unarmed.

Also what I found interesting in these "lost interviews" was how Roddenberry did give credit where credit was due. He knew that Trek succeeded with the help of others. However, I don't care for the current trend of diminishing his own contributions.

All GR's memos show a man who really understood the show he created, and he knew good story.
 
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