That's your job. Show how the
Defiant achieved more than conventional starships (eventually) did. Such as, was better against the Borg. Or was better against Dominion bugs. Or was better against Klingon BoPs.
My point throughout is that the
Defiant was good, but never exceptionally so. the idea that she would be better than competition is fan bias, admittedly welcomed by writers but not actually supported by what ended up on screen.
Then by this logic, all Star Trek series ships are equal, since they are "hero" ships.
Please explain? Although it should be pointed out that the
Defiant was a rather exceptional hero ship in that she was dramatically entitled to actually lose some battles, and even to eventually perish, as she wasn't the only (dramatic) vehicle available to the heroes.
Please name the episodes where Voyager was able to withstand the firepower of three ship while the shields are down.
Say, the fights with such multi-ship opponents as the Ramura or the Swarm aliens.
However, the
Defiant never withstood the firepower of three ships while her shields were down. Or can you suggest an example?
(No, the three BoPs in "Way of the Warrior" didn't collectively fire at her. And by the time the
Vor'Cha showed up, and she lowered her shields for transport, only one BoP was left.)
(And no, she didn't withstand the firepower of the the three plus three ships in "The Search" - she succumbed to it.)
Please state the dialog in the movie where it states that they had shield capability while cloaked. Being able to fire while cloaked is not the same thing as being able to have shild while cloaked.
There is no known limitation to being shielded while cloaked. Indeed, shields are explicitly commanded up while the ship is cloaked in "A Matter of Honor". Only the Duras ship in ST:GEN seems rigged so that cloaking automatically drops shields - perhaps a Romulan influence, considering their poliltical leanings and supposed sources of tech support?
But that's neither here nor there, as the pertinent fact in ST6 is that Chang's ship survived Kirk's first torpedo just fine. She was visibly perfectly intact when Sulu's and Kirk's subsequent joint volley hit her, and then blew up.
The hit rate was because they were trying to rescue the counsel members from being captured from the damaged Cardassian ship, not executing evasive manuevers.
Umm, what? Evasive maneuvers were both stated in dialogue and shown on screen. We'd never seen such violent maneuvering in Star Trek before, in fact!
The tractor beam trick then reduced the efficiency of the disruptor hits, but didn't seem to do much to prevent the hits from taking place.
Here we go again. Other than the Defiant, please name the episodes where the bugships missed their targets.
Say, the runabouts in "Valiant" and "Treachery, Faith and the Great River". It's not so often in DS9 that the villains would target a vessel other than the
Defiant. But note that the asteroid defense guns in "Tears of the Prophets" keep missing the escorting
Excelsior and
Miranda in addition to the
Defiant; Dominion aim is generally a tad less perfect than Starfleet aim. Although one has to admit that some of the good rep of Starfleet aim comes from "peacetime" engagements, as opposed to the unholy furballs of the actual war. Dominion guns might perhaps aim straight in such more controlled battles.
Maybe using your own logic, they just got "lucky"?
You'll have to do better than that, darling.
Please rewatch the episode again.
So? The drone never dodges a beam or a torpedo. It merely pops up at an unexpected location, and then cloaks again before Worf has time to adjust his aim. Worf then tries to guess on the next pop-up but keeps failing miserably.
Why would 23rd century evidence be relevant in the 24th? The weapons of the previous century are no longer used in the TNG era - even the phaser beams from the familiar TOS movie ships look completely different now. Kirk couldn't always aim straight. But Archer couldn't dent shields with his spatial torpedoes. Does that by your logic mean that every instance of torpedoes actually working against shields is in violation of canon and logic because it contradicts 2150 technological reality?
In Kirk's time, maneuvering clearly mattered, which makes one wonder why they didn't have fightercraft back then.
In Picard's time, we see no clear-cut advantage to maneuvering, except against certain special opponents who compensate for their poor aim with generous volumes of fire. And the advantage there is not unique to the
Defiant, or even to the still more maneuverable and smaller runabouts or fightercraft. Big starships have equal (lack of) success in Dominion beam avoidance.
Where in the dialog was this stated?
Perhaps in the part where the BoP doesn't blow up when subjected to fire that on previous TNG episodes had demolished or crippled similar or larger vessels?
The only way you can wiggle out of this one is to say that the
Galaxy (or at least the
Enterprise) consistently portrays an inability to hurt BoP-style targets with her regular beams. But the evidence is the opposite: in TNG,
Galaxy main guns are potent, and only the mightiest enemies in the largest ships are at times immune to their pounding. The
Defiant pulses may do equally well, but they don't do markedly better. And certainly not against Klingon BoPs other than the Duras sisters one.
So a cloaked shuttle would have had the same effect?
If they suspected Tom Riker of being a suicide bomber, yes.
Again you try to argue that since the
Defiant wasn't declared the wimpiest of all spacecraft in dialogue, she therefore has to be the most powerful of them all. But she never demonstrated potency in her titular episode. It took four of her quantum torpedoes to give no visual damage to that
Keldon; a
Galaxy could and did cripple similar ships with one of her phaser beams in TNG. That's not
Defiant superiority, that's
Defiant parity at best.
And while the
Defiant was being hunted to extinction by more than a dozen Cardassian cruisers, the
Enterprise-D in "Chain of Command" prepared to triumph against such a number. The
Defiant is a good little ship, but she is not the better of her bigger sisters.
Where in the episode did she say this?
DS9 characters seldom baby-talk, so I see you might miss this one. But I have to say it's quite difficult to mistake Kira's
Kira: "And this is the ship Starfleet sent us to fight off an attack by the Dominion?"
for praise. Indeed, the contempt in Kira's voice is marked in the shooting script already, at least if the Trekcore version holds true. It is blatant that Kira understands the inferiority inherent in the failed prototype ship, while the Starfleet heroes either stay politely quiet or are all too willing to believe in their commander's ability to carry the day.
Wow, your bias appears to be so great that it borders on remarkable. You discount dialog and scenes from the series and movies, while inserting your own interpretations as "facts", and you seem to invent scenes, dialog and motivations that were not shown in these episodes. How come?
Wow, your bias appears to be so great that it borders on remarkable. You discount dialog and scenes from the series and movies, while inserting your own interpretations as "facts", and you seem to invent scenes, dialog and motivations that were not shown in these episodes. How come?
Timo Saloniemi
