Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Ragitsu, May 10, 2022.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    The problem with that argument is that it is a tautology. "If something is already perfect, you don't improve it."

    No duh.

    All of Star Trek's advancements are because of a desire to improve.
     
    Ragitsu and McCoy's Disco Collar like this.
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    But the Federation wasn't involved in the problems between Bajor and Cardassia. When Bajor was occupied the Federation didn't do anything about it (if you want to go by the novelverse, because the recognized Bajoran government at the time accepted Cardassian rule), and in fact that likely spurred on the Maquis.

    The Federation didn't get involved at all until the Cardassian withdrawal, when the Bajoran provisional government asked for Federation assistance.

    I'm also not sure what you're talking about when you claim the Federation is trying to make everyone the same; can you please cite specific episodes that support your claims?
     
    McCoy's Disco Collar likes this.
  3. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    To some, the hope they dream of is magic. However, even if it - against all odds - seems impossible, they will continue to dream until what was once magic is now the reality.
     
  4. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    During the Korean War, mainland Chinese troops and American troops were fighting each other directly.

    I don't see what the Federation does and what the Borg does as even remotely comparable. Membership in the Federation and trade with it is completely voluntary. If you don't think that matters, your country has probably not been invaded recently.
     
  5. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Location:
    Florida
    That's heavily implied on-screen as well:

     
    McCoy's Disco Collar and DonIago like this.
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    ^I can't recommend the Terok Nor trilogy of novels, especially the first one, highly enough. The process by which Bajor became occupied is outlined in excruciatingly tragic detail. I'd kind of love to know what someone who hadn't seen the series (and who consequently didn't know what was coming) would make of it.
     
    dupersuper and David cgc like this.
  7. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Francis Fukuyama -- you probably remember the phrase "the end of history" even if you don't remember him -- said something along those lines:

    From a recent interview on Vox.
     
  8. Trekker09

    Trekker09 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    VIrginia, US
    I think you have to distinguish between what Eddington said about the Federation, and Roddenberry’s original premise of a peaceful, prosperous earth. Take away that essential positive vision of our future, and it’s no longer Star Trek. At the same time, DS9 and other series do reveal a darker side of huge institutions like Starfleet and the UFP.

    2053 – World War 3 devastation
    2063 - Zefram Cochrane invents warp drive (motivated by financial greed, but it works) which attracts the Vulcans, who land on earth to meet us and continue to advise and guide us for years. The Vulcans inspired us to get past our own violent tendencies -- part competition, part envy perhaps.
    2156 – Romulans attack earth, resulting in the neutral zone and United Federation of Planets.

    It’s true Kirk does say in a few TOS episodes that humanity has to claw our way up, we need obstacles to overcome (Metamorphosis, This side of paradise, etc). but I don’t think that negates GR’s radical optimism: “I think technology will save us. And our own goodness…basic human decency. Our ability to sympathize with others. The wish to help. These things are part of our nature.”
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
    cgervasi likes this.
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    Journeying onwards
    Which cuts strongly against Gene's later idea of an "evolved" humanity. The idea that we had to "grow out of our infancy" and ignore our nature. Instead, TOS was the idea that humans had the capacity of great good, cooperation and mutual support. In other words, the capacity for making positive choices and personal growth. But, we equally are capable of great savagery, fear and destruction. "We're killers. But we're not going to kill today!"
     
  10. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Sadly, ENT downplayed the role model aspect of the Vulcans; that show basically boiled down to "get off my back, old man" beyond the few "good" Vulcans that were protagonist-friendly.
     
  11. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Fortunately, the franchise returned to the original vision.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Frankly I thought ENT, at least in S1, made it look as though the bigoted humans who often made insensible decisions deserved to have been held back a bit.
     
    Nyotarules, Ragitsu and kkt like this.
  13. Picard578

    Picard578 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Location:
    somwhere in Milky Way
    Frankly, Gene's idea was stupid on multiple levels. It is stupid, unrealistic, preachy... and worst of all, makes for bad storytelling. Without conflict, you do not have a story, and conflict requires imperfection.

    That is why I think TOS (where others basically ignored him) and DS9 (which again ignored his ideas) were the best Star Trek series. First seasons of TNG, where Gene is basically allowed to run rampant, were some of the weakest parts of Star Trek IMO (although I never watched Discovery etc., and don't intend to, so...).

    So overall, I think Eddington is not entirely wrong... he is wrong in a lot of things, but there are some seeds in all that chaff.
     
    danellis likes this.
  14. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Most important question: worse than the Borg?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2022
  15. Picard578

    Picard578 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    Location:
    somwhere in Milky Way
    Well, the Borg at least are honest about what they are doing... on the other hand, they don't exactly give you an option to refuse.

    So I'd say no.
     
    kkt likes this.
  16. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Sanity prevails.
     
    McCoy's Disco Collar likes this.
  17. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    "We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

    Unless you do not wish to be assimilated. If that is the desire, be aware you are saying 'no' to a quest toward perfection. We will move on to the next group, who might desire to be a part of our goal. No harm, no foul. Enjoy your existence as singular lifeforms, not knowing the purity and belonging of our Collective. Have a pleasant existence."
    - New Borg Collective Greeting
     
  18. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    The Borg assimilated Canada?
     
  19. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    Or they are the Borg... :biggrin:
     
  20. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    I respectfully disagree. What you think is unrealistic I think is aspirational. I don't see the [decrease] in conflict due to some writer's magic wand ultimately conjuring bots more than people, but instead loved educated and seasoned reasoning people trying at working together toward greater mutual gain. That takes faith and trust as much as anything, but, uh, so does banking and modern society. It's when people begin to feel the system is rigged that things deteriorate. No moonbase for us. Back to school shootings.

    Conflict comes in many forms. We don't by and large settle our disputes with duels, rape, and genocide, etc these days, yet drama persists. It's about finding it in the moment. We all feel it in our lives. An argument can be as harrowing, more so, than the umpteenth murder of a redshirt.

    Also the first two seasons of TNG were them trying to find what became Star Trek for the decades after. Watch some other sci-fi of the time and thank TNG for its service. While you're at it, I do recommend giving Strange New Worlds a try. Like every Trek series, it's different in its own way from everything else, but I think it's pretty good. I think Discovery, alas, went downhill fast toward the middle-end of its second season, though some people seem to like it still. You tell me if you do. The first season especially is brilliant for something that happens toward the end of it. Maybe consider Prodigy too – it's a charming uplifting [younger fan] show.