Star Trek VI. the stupidity of Starfleet and Spock for choosing Kirk to meet with Gorkon

Also 1: though Klingons were briefly in it, they didn't fight the Enterprise.

 

They really didn’t need to justify it. He had been someone on the frontlines of a Cold War with the Klingons for 40 years. He saw real atrocities and also likely a lot of Federation propaganda about them.

No one is immune to the effects such things can have over the long run.

 

Yes, but that's impossible to reconcile with what we saw him experience in the film immediately before. From what we just saw with Kirk, with Scotty, with Chekov, to have them learn respect for Klingons and learn to see Klingons as individual beings (some worthy of respect) in one film and then flip to genocidal racists in the next film beggars belief.

STV, for all its many flaws, actually had some great character moments. And character growth. Growth that was totally ignored in the very next film because... plot contrivances.

I'm not saying the filmmakers couldn't have made those changes of heart work. I'm just saying they needed to plant some seeds, do a little work. But for whatever reason, they just didn't do that with this film. When they did make an attempt to set up plot points, they bungled it like forgetting which ship was cataloguing gaseous anomalies. But they didn't bother to even try with the characters.

 

It really isn’t hard to reconcile, in one, Kirk is in a public setting as the “captain of the Enterprise” and Federation representative, the other is a private conversation with a long time confidant.

It just makes Kirk all the more real, as he has public and private persona. He has his allegiance to the Federation and its ideals and his personal thoughts on matters.

 

You mean the Klingons in the previous movie who included a ship that wanted to murder him and an already failed peace agreement (Nimbus III)? Remember Klaa wanted to kill Kirk and fight the Federation. He just obeyed the chain of command.

Yes, they ended up working together but it was under extreme duress.

And I feel like Kirk's criticism of Spock dragooning him into the treaty was EXTREMELY MILD. As stated, he spends the movie trying to salvage the agreement. He just makes a few nasty remarks and IMMEDIATELY clocks into the fact that Chang is untrustworthy.

 

Whatever his personal feelings towards the Klingons were, he still felt peace was the best option.

 

For Kirk to have hatred towards Klingons for the death of David after fully avenging the people responsible, made his position off base. I could understand if there was a scene to illustrate the Klingons cruelty towards Federation citizens on Praxis as Starfleet was working on negotiations for their release and then the moon exploded; it would've been reason for me to understand why Kirk would have such a reaction. Even if there's parallels to those citizens being scientists and they were wrongly treated would incite reason to have bigoted position he uncharacteristically portrayed.

As for the Great Nicholas Meyer, previously helming the phenomenal rollercoaster flop "Company Business", I thought was disingenuous toward Shatner when shooting the alternate scene. The camera angle and position was completely wrong to conveying Kirk's mental state in the moment; Meyer was not compromising his racist vision for Kirk.

 

Because there is no racist vision for Kirk. Which is why he spends the entire movie trying to make the mission work. If Kirk had been racist, he wouldn’t have surrendered the Enterprise and beamed over to Kronos One to aid the Klingons, he would’ve curbstomped it and then explained it away later.

I can see disliking a movie, but not making up reasons to dislike it.

 

Yup. Despite his vitriolic frustration with the Klingons and Spock forcing his hand he still went on the mission. He did his duty.

Exactly so. This film, like TOS, explored Kirk as a human being, flaws and all.

 

It is like people are desperate to forget the rest of the movie just so they can make a stink about that one scene.

People say Nick Meyer was making Kirk racist, yet two scenes later we see Kirk stating and questioning his feelings about Klingons. Racists generally don’t do that.

 

I have been watching this a bit, and again, my own interpretation, but it appears that Kirk in fans minds is not Kirk as depicted in TOS or the earlier films. He is the Kirk of legend, the pop culture icon, and as such, has achieved a legendary status, not unlike Greek gods before in mythology. Him having flaws is simply unacceptable, even brief bouts with it. It is unbecoming.

I believe the best summation of this idea is "Don't meet your heroes."

 

It does seem people are more interested in the pop culture caricature than the actual character as presented on screen.

 

If I may be so bold as to offer an alternative, I don't think it is the caricature but the memory of an icon from one's past. In other words, framed through the lens of nostalgia vs. what actually happened. That they are consumed with a memory, and in so doing, made a memorial to the past, rather than what actually occured.

Reminds me of a monologue from Red vs. Blue. In one series, a character is consumed by memory, to the point of obsession. His final speech on the matter feels quite fitting to me as I try to find a way to articulate the potential viewpoint on Trek. It's one outside of my own experience.

 

I think there's an argument that Kirk seems out of character but I also think that KIRK is aware he's out of character. Shatner did the line but also showed, I think, that he immediately regretted it (as Kirk) when it escaped his mouth. Also, that he was skeptical of the Klingons offering a treaty which they've had multiple problems with.

I also think the dinner scene was good because Kirk picks up, even if its unconscious, that Chang isn't behind this at all.

You could argue that Kirk really has his captain's intuition telling me there's something wrong but he can't figure out from where.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with this. Kirk has no reason to suspect anything's wrong, other than his own misgivings about peace with the Klingons. At that point in the film, this is just a diplomatic escort meet and greet. The only people Kirk should feel are "behind" anything are Spock and Gorkon for starting their dialog. Chang may be the big bad, but unless Kirk saw the trailer, he doesn't have any reason to believe the General is anything other than reluctant.

 

I mean he compares him to Hitler.

The irony is that Kirk is right treachery is afoot.

 

At the dinner, none of the Klingons seem to be particularly thrilled about dealing with the Federation. Well, Gorkon is cordial, but the others are just there because they don't have any alternative. They speak of "the annihilation of our culture," and the Federation being a "homo-sapiens only club." Chang is a bit more... subtle, I guess? Not saying anything outright accusatory or antagonistic along those lines. Maybe that in itself was enough for Kirk to be wary of him. At least with the other Klingons it was easy to see where they stood.

Kor

 

Chang if anything seemed more interested in human culture, reading the exploits of Kirk as Patton read Rommel. He was the closest any Klingon ever came to Thrawn…more dangerous than Dukat even. Kirk was older, had seen enough of battles. That made him cantankerous.

The younger pre-David TOS Kirk would have been perhaps more open…but he might not have surrendered after the false flag…like Chang was hoping for in his Gulf of Tonkin ploy.

It could be a more relaxed style that worked against Kirk during Reliant’s silent approach worked in his favor here. Younger Kirk would have raised shields…

 

And not just Kirk, sadly.

Selling out the characters to create artificial drama is really a big comedown from the men who were once capable of so much more. TWOK is such a solid script, its setups solidly paid off with nothing wasted, it's hard to believe this mess came from the same people.

 

It was extremely antagonistic and it showed through. What is more frustrating is that despite the Klingons being imperialistic, enslaving and violent, only Kirk is treated as being in the wrong.