Civilian Space Travel?

[XKin]

In the Trek Universe is Civilian, not commercial, space travel common place or is it just governments?

 

[amdmiami]

I think its pretty common because in TNG the Enterprise-D is carrying civilians

 

[All Seeing Eye]

We regularly saw civilian transport vessels docking at DS9 from all across the federation, Julian Bashirs parents went to DS9 on one from Earth and his father made it clear those transports also had Stewards on board, because he himself used to be one.
We've also seen people with their own personal shuttles to get around, the grand nagus has one and Quark received one from his cousin Galar and used it to travel to earth.

 

[Timo]

We regularly saw civilian transport vessels docking at DS9 from all across the federation

(Did we? How could we tell those weren't alien military/government transports, akin to the apparent Starfleet transports that we saw docked to the station every so often?)

The clear-cut examples of civilian interstellar passenger traffic are actually relatively few. There was the Astral Queen in TOS "Conscience of the King" already, and then the apparent personal luxury cruiser Aurora in "Way to Eden", suggesting that passenger traffic was commonplace enough back in those days. But thereafter, it 8quotereally tapers down, with most TNG and DS9 references being for cargo transports with the odd hitchhiker aboard, or for dedicated colonizers.

Vash does discuss booking a trip in "Q-Less", and apparently people travel to and fro Risa by some means other than Starfleet transports.

We've also seen people with their own personal shuttles to get around, the grand nagus has one

That really sounds more like something his government would provide to him. And there wouldn't be rules about only using it for state business, not in the way the Ferengi society is run.

But yes, small craft in private hands are quite commonplace in TNG and DS9. It's the passenger liners that are curiously absent, or Starfleet-run. Or then those just don't visit the final frontier much, whereas that's exactly where the E-D and DS9 always hang around.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

(Did we? How could we tell those weren't alien military/government transports, akin to the apparent Starfleet transports that we saw docked to the station every so often?)

How many times did we see civilians boarding transport ships for Bajor and other worlds? we've seen countless times people of different races get on the same transports and we've seen Ferengi many a time also get on and off those transports with Federation citizens, we saw Grilka arrive on a transport with other species, we've seen Lwaxana troi depart on a transport which I highly doubt is going to be a government transport when she only went to the station because she was pregnant and to hide from her husband. Civilian transports existed on DS9 and we saw them every other episode, no starfleet or government transport is going to take Ferengi onboard, and no ferengi 'government' transport is going to take federation citizens on board. Civilian transports must exist or nobody can get anywhere.

That really sounds more like something his government would provide to him.

His government? he IS the government, he is/was the ruler of the entire ferengi Alliance with his own profits, that shuttle is more likely his own personal ship than something a none existant government gave him. The Ferengi Commerce Authority took orders from the Grand Nagus just like everyone else, there was no democracy, the grand nagus had the power to change the rules of aquisition without consulting anyone else. If he's going to travel on a shuttle and he's the richest ferengi in the alliance i'm sure he's going to buy himself the best ship available.
Even Quark was heard to say 'the grand nagus's personal shuttle'.

 

[Timo]

..no starfleet or government transport is going to take Ferengi onboard

Why on (or off) Earth not?

Actually, I'd think the UFP government would love to monopolize or at least regulate all traffic to that Starfleet-administrated installation, including forcing foreigners to use Starfleet transports.'

..that shuttle is more likely his own personal ship than something a none existant government gave him.

That's what I mean. In all probability, he gave the shuttle to himself because he was the Grand Nagus and thus in position to bribe himself that way. It wouldn't be "private" in quite the same sense as Gaila's or Quark's ships would be. It would be more like the government business jets that assorted banana republic dictators (and many rulers of supposedly more benign political setups) use for personal pleasure.

But certainly owning a small interstellar spacecraft is commonplace in the TNG era, and not all that expensive, either. Just remember Jaglom Shrek from "Birthright".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

Cyrano Jones had a private space ship.
The Astral Queen (Conscience of the King) was a civil space liner, at least by implication.
The Aurora (The Way to Eden) was a private yacht.
Harry Mudd owned his own private ship.

Thadian Okona owned the Erstwhile.

Next question.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

So if Quark buys a shuttle its a civilian ship but if the Grand Nagus buys himself a shuttle its a government vessel because he's the ruler of the Ferengi Alliance. At the end of the day if they buy it with their own money, which seems to be the only way to aquire anything in Ferengi society, its still classed as a civilian ship, surely. I can also imagine that Ferengi Marauders are also purchased by the richer Ferengi, but like all Ferengi they must follow any orders given to them by the Grand Nagus or the ferengi Commerce Authority.

 

[Timo]

Harry Mudd owned his own private ship.

To nitpick, he illegally operated a vessel whose true master and possible but not necessary owner was one late Leo Walsh.

So if Quark buys a shuttle its a civilian ship but if the Grand Nagus buys himself a shuttle its a government vessel because he's the ruler of the Ferengi Alliance.

If I were a Ferengi, I'd love to call my private shuttle a government vessel and charge its operating expenses on a government account...

No doubt the Nagus has something like half a dozen private vessels anyway, varying in size and capabilities. And yes, I'd imagine most if not all of the Marauders are also privately owned, and only charter their services to the broader Ferengi military at a hefty price.

One also wonders whether all those transports serving Bajoran interests are chartered like the Xhosa...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[A beaker full of death]

So if Quark buys a shuttle its a civilian ship but if the Grand Nagus buys himself a shuttle its a government vessel because he's the ruler of the Ferengi Alliance.

I think the question is about ships capable of interstellar travels, not shuttles.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Let's not forget the Boomers of ENT. Proof that in the 22nd C anyway, civilians could take the initiative to explore space without being dependent on any government.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

So if Quark buys a shuttle its a civilian ship but if the Grand Nagus buys himself a shuttle its a government vessel because he's the ruler of the Ferengi Alliance.

I think the question is about ships capable of interstellar travels, not shuttles.

What are you talking about! Ferengi shuttles ARE capable of warp speed and interstellar travel, precisely in the same way that Federation shuttles are capable of warp speed and interstellar travel. Quark travelled to Earth from DS9 in one.
How much trek have you seen? Thats an honest question, because i'm not sure how anyone couldnt know shuttles in Trek are warp capable.

 

[A beaker full of death]

So if Quark buys a shuttle its a civilian ship but if the Grand Nagus buys himself a shuttle its a government vessel because he's the ruler of the Ferengi Alliance.

I think the question is about ships capable of interstellar travels, not shuttles.

What are you talking about! Ferengi shuttles ARE capable of warp speed and interstellar travel, precisely in the same way that Federation shuttles are capable of warp speed and interstellar travel. Quark travelled to Earth from DS9 in one.
How much trek have you seen? Thats an honest question, because i'm not sure how anyone couldnt know shuttles in Trek are warp capable.

You might want to watch Star Trek sometime. Not the sequel series. Let's use our brains for a minute: why is it called a SHUTTLE???
You don't cruise from America to England in a row boat. Might want to dig into the roots of the series for a better understanding.

 

[Bill Morris]

Brunt had his own privately owned ship, and so did Mirror Brunt.

 

[matthunter]

I think the question is about ships capable of interstellar travels, not shuttles.

What are you talking about! Ferengi shuttles ARE capable of warp speed and interstellar travel, precisely in the same way that Federation shuttles are capable of warp speed and interstellar travel. Quark travelled to Earth from DS9 in one.
How much trek have you seen? Thats an honest question, because i'm not sure how anyone couldnt know shuttles in Trek are warp capable.

You might want to watch Star Trek sometime. Not the sequel series. Let's use our brains for a minute: why is it called a SHUTTLE???
You don't cruise from America to England in a row boat. Might want to dig into the roots of the series for a better understanding.

#

Your pedantry notwithstanding, his point still stands - shuttles, whether you agree with the definition or not, ARE warp-capable outside of the original series and can thus be safely included in this discussion. The TNG crew are regularly seen using them for trips to conferences, etc.

Argue with the writers if you really can't shake the stick loose, but for the purposes of this discussion you might want to focus on what's actually been established on screen.

 

[Opal]

Civilian travel must be commonplace. As already mentioned in previous posts there are many specific examples of civilians traveling.

It's also implied as well. Risa for example, is shown as a Rest and Recreation destination, not only for military but there are many civilian holiday makers as well. The only way a resort that has civilians visiting it can operate is if civilian travel is commonplace . In the Next Gen episode "Captains Holiday" I think we can safely assume Vash was not transported there by a Star Fleet ship.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

We regularly saw civilian transport vessels docking at DS9 from all across the federation

(Did we? How could we tell those weren't alien military/government transports, akin to the apparent Starfleet transports that we saw docked to the station every so often?)

The clear-cut examples of civilian interstellar passenger traffic are actually relatively few. There was the Astral Queen in TOS "Conscience of the King" already, and then the apparent personal luxury cruiser Aurora in "Way to Eden", suggesting that passenger traffic was commonplace enough back in those days. But thereafter, it 8quotereally tapers down, with most TNG and DS9 references being for cargo transports with the odd hitchhiker aboard, or for dedicated colonizers.

Vash does discuss booking a trip in "Q-Less", and apparently people travel to and fro Risa by some means other than Starfleet transports.

We've also seen people with their own personal shuttles to get around, the grand nagus has one

That really sounds more like something his government would provide to him. And there wouldn't be rules about only using it for state business, not in the way the Ferengi society is run.

But yes, small craft in private hands are quite commonplace in TNG and DS9. It's the passenger liners that are curiously absent, or Starfleet-run. Or then those just don't visit the final frontier much, whereas that's exactly where the E-D and DS9 always hang around.

Timo Saloniemi

You've left out Carter Winston's personal ship ("The Survivor", Cyrano Jones' one man scout ("Trouble With Tribbles", et al), among others.

I'd like to know where this sudden wave of "if we've never seen it, it don't exist in Trek" -itis came from...this isn't the ONLY recent thread here and elsewhere with this sort oft theme...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Your pedantry notwithstanding, his point still stands - shuttles, whether you agree with the definition or not, ARE warp-capable outside of the original series and can thus be safely included in this discussion.

So are at least SOME TOS shuttles (cf "The Menagerie", "Let that Be your Last Battlefield", "Metamorphosis", TAS "The Slaver Weapon", et al)

 

[A beaker full of death]

So are at least SOME TOS shuttles (cf "The Menagerie", "Let that Be your Last Battlefield", "Metamorphosis", TAS "The Slaver Weapon", et al)

I stand by the rowboat analogy. The shuttle in the Menagerie couldn't make it very far; that's why Spock had to turn around. The shuttle in Metamorphosis was being used for just that purpose - shuttling. It didn't have a whole lot of steam behind it.

I don't care about warp-capable or not; TOS always fudged that. The point is they were conceived and used as SHUTTLES - landing craft, or, at best, boats for easy transport of no more than a couple of days, incapable of the rigors of deep space travel. If the writers of later Trek didn't know that, well, that's no surprise. To DS9's credit, they did come up with the runabout, which seems to have been sort of a PT boat.

But to the question at hand, of course there were privately owned merchant ships - though, at least within the Federation, they were regulated. And those regulations were enforced by Starfleet; hence the charges leveled at Harry Mudd (suspended master's license, no navigational beacon, etc.)

 

[HRHTheKING]

We should see a lot more civilian transport in Star Trek.

Not on transport ships, but civilians owning their own vessels.