Is a navigational deflector necessary for warp drive?

[Citiprime]

Among Federation starships and other craft, some have a deflector dish and some don't (e.g., Oberth class, warp capable shuttles, runabouts, etc.).

I'm just curious as to whether in the lore of the franchise is it one of those things where the ships with no noticeable dish have some other lesser navigational deflector than the big dish? Or could it be something where depending on the design of a ship it might not need one for warp travel?

It's also noteworthy the ship designs among most of the other rival factions in Trek, none seem to have anything comparable to a deflector dish on their ships.

So could it be the deflector dish's function might be more tied to scientific purposes, since Federation starships are multirole ships and not dedicated warships?

 

[DonIago]

Are you sure that those vessels don't have navigational deflectors? Has that been stated, or are you just going by your own observations?

 

[UssGlenn]

I figure navigational deflectors don't require a dedicated dish, but if you do install the version with the dish then you get the ability to shoot various beams out of it. So the Miranda class could send out a tachyon pulse, but not a tachyon beam, for example.

 

[blssdwlf]

I think the dish (at least for TOS and the TOS movie ships) are just long range sensors and don't really serve any function as a navigational deflector. The nav deflectors instead are all over the ship in a similar way that the shields are.

In TNG and later that's changed a bit so that the big dish is the main navigational deflector. I don't recall if any TNG or later production ship ever warped backwards after this change.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Among Federation starships and other craft, some have a deflector dish and some don't (e.g., Oberth class, warp capable shuttles, runabouts, etc.).

True

I'm just curious as to whether in the lore of the franchise is it one of those things where the ships with no noticeable dish have some other lesser navigational deflector than the big dish? Or could it be something where depending on the design of a ship it might not need one for warp travel?

The Navigational Deflector Emitter or Dish is needed for "Warp Drive" or else you run into micro particles.

Does it have to be in the form of a Big Dish? No, it could be much smaller.

Look at the Intrepid class, it has a Auxilliary Navigational Deflector Dish on top of the saucer near the fore area.

It's also noteworthy the ship designs among most of the other rival factions in Trek, none seem to have anything comparable to a deflector dish on their ships.

The Klingon Bird of Prey has their Navigational Deflector Dish surrounding their Torpedo Launcher on the fore end of the nose section.

The Romulan D'deridex was suppose to have the Navigational Deflector on the nose of the head, but the VFX department screwed it up and turned that into a weapons port.

So could it be the deflector dish's function might be more tied to scientific purposes, since Federation starships are multirole ships and not dedicated warships?

The "Big Dish" or Large Deflector Dish serves Multiple Purposes:
- Navigational Deflection is considered basic level functionality
- Long Range Sensors is tied into the "Big Dish"
- Main Shields could be emitted from the "Big Dish"
- Massive Energy Projector / Emitter
- Long Range Communications Emitter

The uses for the "Big Dish" is numerous and invaluable.

 

[Henoch]

The big dish in TOS has never been explained.

Starting in the Cage, no reference to the big dish. Rather, as the ship travels through a meteorite field, it uses the meteorite beam to fend off the debris:

SPOCK: It can't be the screen then. Definitely something out there, Captain, headed this way.
TYLER: It could be these meteorites.
ONE: No, it's something else. There's still something out there.
TYLER: It's coming at the speed of light, collision course. The meteorite beam has not deflected it, Captain.
ONE: Evasive manoeuvres, sir?

During TOS, no reference to the big dish. To deflect an asteroid, the deflectors are used and appear as a single, focused beam coming from the centerline of the ship, somewhere. Could be the same emitter as used by the phasers and photon torpedoes, or from the lower sensor dome dangle-thingy.

SPOCK: Prepare to activate deflectors.
SULU: Aye, sir.
CHEKOV: Power dropping, sir.
(The lights dim.)
SPOCK: Engineering, maintain full power. Full power.
SCOTT [OC]: Dilithium crystal circuit's failing, sir. We'll have to replace it.
SPOCK: Not now.
CHEKOV: Zero. Deflection point now, sir.
SPOCK: Activate deflectors.
(A beam shoots out and pulses against the big lump of rock.)
CHEKOV: Power dropping, sir.
SPOCK: Degree of deflection, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Not enough, Mister Spock. It's only point zero zero one three degrees.

What we know is only what we see. My take, the big dish is fixed in the forward position, so, it logically seems to have something to do with warp speed navigation. It could be a long range sensor detecting stuff far enough out that the ship can stir around it or use the deflectors on it. Back in the 1960's design, antennas were used for radio/TV communications, while dishes were used for directional radar sensors. Just saying.

 

[blssdwlf]

Has there been any other Star Trek ship other than the TOS Enterprise shown to be flying at warp but not going forwards?

 

[valkyrie013]

Tmp mention the nav deflector in the wormhole scene.

But yes, NEED a deflector .. As the ship is traveling FTL and even atoms at that speed are bad news. Ship may be in a bubble but that bubble is traveling at a 1000 times the speed of light in normal space.
Imagine a baseball sized asteroid , the kinetic energy at 1000x FTL? Badda big boom!

 

[C.E. Evans]

I tend to think that ships like the Miranda- and Oberth-classes use navigational forcefields (or navigational shields), which do the same thing as a deflector dish in pushing objects and particles out of the immediate way of a vessel. Such ships may not be intended to move very large objects out of the way, especially if their mission profile is more of a support nature rather than boldly going into the unknown, IMO. A deflector dish may be ideal for situations where a very large object has to moved at a distance.

 

[blssdwlf]

Tmp mention the nav deflector in the wormhole scene.

But yes, NEED a deflector .. As the ship is traveling FTL and even atoms at that speed are bad news. Ship may be in a bubble but that bubble is traveling at a 1000 times the speed of light in normal space.
Imagine a baseball sized asteroid , the kinetic energy at 1000x FTL? Badda big boom!

Hmm... looking at TMP and something interesting is happening. The Enterprise is FTL yet she has *no* navigational deflectors on at FTL prior to detecting the object in her path. She does have multiple nav deflectors though.

KIRK: Warp drive, Mister Scott. Ahead, warp one, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Accelerating to warp one, sir. Warp point seven, ...point eight, ...warp one, sir.
KIRK: Mister Decker... Wormhole! ...Get us back on impulse power! Full reverse!
SULU: Negative helm control, Captain! Going reverse on impulse power!
UHURA: Subspace frequencies are jammed, sir. Wormhole effect!
DECKER: Negative control from inertial lag will continue twenty-two point five seconds before forward velocity slows to sub-light speed.
ILIA: Unidentified small object has been pulled into the wormhole with us, Captain! Directly ahead!
KIRK: Forcefields up, full! Put object on viewer. ...Manual override on helm.
SULU: No manual response!
ILIA: Navigational deflectors coming up.
DECKER: Wormhole distortion has over-loaded main power systems!
ILIA: Navigational deflectors inoperative, Captain. Directional control also inoperative.​

 

[Citiprime]

The Navigational Deflector Emitter or Dish is needed for "Warp Drive" or else you run into micro particles.

I understand that's been the technical explanation for the navigational deflector for a long time. My mom bought me the TNG technical manual as a kid, and I remember reading something similar in there.

But another related question to this is how close does the Trek version of warp drive track with the concepts of the Alcubierre Drive? Because if it operates similar to that, the ship doesn't move while in warp. The ship is in its own separate warp bubble/field, with the ship warping space around it and riding it like a surfboard riding a wave.

If it works something like that, I guess you would only need a deflector probably for coming out of warp or operating at impulse. However, Trek's version of warp seems to imply that a ship at warp travels through "subspace."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

To deflect an asteroid, the deflectors are used and appear as a single, focused beam coming from the centerline of the ship, somewhere. Could be the same emitter as used by the phasers and photon torpedoes, or from the lower sensor dome dangle-thingy.

But also it could be from the dish?

 

[Sgt_G]

The lack of a visible dish doesn't mean the ship doesn't have one, but rather it may be covered like the radar in the nose cone of a jet airliner.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I understand that's been the technical explanation for the navigational deflector for a long time. My mom bought me the TNG technical manual as a kid, and I remember reading something similar in there.

But another related question to this is how close does the Trek version of warp drive track with the concepts of the Alcubierre Drive? Because if it operates similar to that, the ship doesn't move while in warp. The ship is in its own separate warp bubble/field, with the ship warping space around it and riding it like a surfboard riding a wave.

That's the way it operates in Star Trek, the rough Spheroid or Ellisoid volume of space is the thing that moves, not the vessel itself. The ship just happens to be in the middle of said volume of space and is causing the movement or Warping of space.

If it works something like that, I guess you would only need a deflector probably for coming out of warp or operating at impulse. However, Trek's version of warp seems to imply that a ship at warp travels through "subspace."

Traveling through actual Subspace is what Borg Transwarp Conduits do. That's an entirely different method of FTL that is seperate from Warp Drive.

You need a Navigational Deflector because even small particles traveling at significant fractions of the speed of light would be devastating to your hull should it impact your vessel.

The lack of a visible dish doesn't mean the hip doesn't have one, but rather it may be covered like the radar in the nose cone of a jet airliner.

Exactly! the Galaxy Class saucer has it's own dedicated "Navigational Deflector" emitters on the fore of the saucer for Saucer seperation at Warp Speeds. The four square on the fore of the saucer on the ventral side is where it's located.

 

[Deks]

When VOY enountered the Borg kids for the first time, they demanded of the crew to disengage their navigational deflector from their secondary hull.
Tuvok at that point said the following: "If we surrender our deflector, we'll be dead in space. We won't be able to go to warp."

So, yes, I would imagine the navigational deflector is necessary for Warp.

Emphasis on 'navigational'. Its obviously used for navigation (and probably more).

 

[C.E. Evans]

Traveling through actual Subspace is what Borg Transwarp Conduits do. That's an entirely different method of FTL that is seperate from Warp Drive.

I'm not so sure about that. Warp engines seem dependent on generating subspace fields in order to operate. Layers of subspace fields may be what comprises a ship's warp envelope or warp bubble.

From ENT's "Cold Front":
TUCKER: When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
SONSORRA: The nacelles.
TUCKER: That's right.
SONSORRA: Which contain warp coils that create the subspace displacement field...

A ship may indeed travel through subspace while at warp, or at the very least be encased in a subspace field. It wouldn't take anything away from the Borg Transwarp Conduits, which would then be a more advanced form of subspace-based travel.

 

[Henoch]

I'm not so sure about that. Warp engines seem dependent on generating subspace fields in order to operate. Layers of subspace fields may be what comprises a ship's warp envelope or warp bubble.

From ENT's "Cold Front":
TUCKER: When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
SONSORRA: The nacelles.
TUCKER: That's right.
SONSORRA: Which contain warp coils that create the subspace displacement field...

A ship may indeed travel through subspace while at warp, or at the very least be encased in a subspace field. It wouldn't take anything away from the Borg Transwarp Conduits, which would then be a more advanced form of subspace-based travel.

I have a different scheme where subspace is a dimension of gravity, so, a subspace displacement field "moves" gravity around the ship; compressing space in front of the ship and expanding space in its rear. Space-time is warped via gravity via subspace displacement, but the ship never enters subspace itself. YMMV .

 

[C.E. Evans]

I have a different scheme where subspace is a dimension of gravity, so, a subspace displacement field "moves" gravity around the ship; compressing space in front of the ship and expanding space in its rear. Space-time is warped via gravity via subspace displacement, but the ship never enters subspace itself. YMMV .

That's a slightly different take on it, but I think a ship does enter subspace--or at least a level of subspace--that allows a ship to achieve FTL velocity by "cheating" the speed-of-light barrier. Within its subspace (or warp) envelope, the vessel stays below lightspeed and avoids the troublesome Einsteinian things that come with it. But that's also YMMV too.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm not so sure about that. Warp engines seem dependent on generating subspace fields in order to operate. Layers of subspace fields may be what comprises a ship's warp envelope or warp bubble.

True, you create Warp Fields in many layers:

Spoiler: Galaxy Class Warp Field Geometries

From ENT's "Cold Front":
TUCKER: When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
SONSORRA: The nacelles.
TUCKER: That's right.
SONSORRA: Which contain warp coils that create the subspace displacement field...

True

A ship may indeed travel through subspace while at warp, or at the very least be encased in a subspace field. It wouldn't take anything away from the Borg Transwarp Conduits, which would then be a more advanced form of subspace-based travel.

Erin MacDonald, actual Astro Physicist & Star Trek Technical Consultant also explains it.

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You move the Bubble of Real Space (Your Vessel is included in that bubble) around your ship at FTL speeds.

Read up on Borg Transwarp Conduits. That's when you actually enter Subspace.

A transwarp conduit, also known as a transwarp corridor or a transwarp tunnel, was an artificially-created energy conduit through a realm of subspace known as transwarp space.

Transwarp Conduits have alot of "Similarities" to typical Worm Holes.

The entrances of transwarp conduits bear many resemblances to subspace gateways. They were utilized by the Borg to cover great distances in a relatively short period of time. Accessed via tachyon pulses of alternating frequencies, the conduits contained a matter stream in which a vessel could reach velocities at least twenty times greater than the maximum warp speed of a Galaxy-class starship, in a process Lieutenant Commander Geordi La Forge described as "like falling into a fast-moving river and being swept away by the current."
...
Transwarp conduits generated high neutrino emissions accompanied by an intermittent graviton flux, leading Seven of Nine and Harry Kim to believe that they are in fact wormholes. The Borg maintained a network of thousands of transwarp conduits throughout the galaxy, connected by six transwarp hubs supported by interspatial manifolds, with exit points in all four quadrants.

It's easy to get the two confused.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Read up on Borg Transwarp Conduits. That's when you actually enter Subspace.

You probably really enter subspace the moment you engage the warp drive. Even impulse engines might generate a subspace field around a ship to reduce its mass and avoid some relativistic effects.

Subspace is really the cheat that Star Trek uses for FTL travel. It's been used in a variety of different methods, but it does seem like a common element for warp drive operation.