Star Trek VI. the stupidity of Starfleet and Spock for choosing Kirk to meet with Gorkon

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Close. Enterprise carrying the same equipment would've been mentioned in the "brief tour" between Gorkon's party arriving on the ship and the dinner scene.

And once they cut that bit, they either had to find someplace to restore the setup, or they should have also removed the callback. Or deleted Sulu's line as well, that would have worked.

The final edit is confusing, sure seems that the screenwriters forgot which ship was which.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

The scene should've been shot, without it Uhura's comments is out of place since it was established Excelsior was solely performing this. Its clunky.

It is sloppy.

I do think that if they removed Sulu's line, it would have felt more as though that equipment was standard on Federation starships. As it stands, Uhura clearly indicates that it's unusual equipment for a special assignment, an assignment that a totally different starship was carrying out.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

I have heard that Nichelle refused to do the "would you want your daughter to marry one" scene, but I had thought it was her line. I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not, but they also may have decided the film didn't really need this scene in particular.

This book indicates that Nichols insisted that the line be cut, even though it wasn't hers. But she was less successful with her "dinner" line; after she refused to deliver it, the line was given to Walter Koenig. All for a bad joke.

With two of the three Black actors in the cast insisting that the script was racist, maybe the producers should have listened to them.

 

[fireproof78]

Shame they tried to be more "profound" than that, then. An episode on the big screen would have been a big improvement.

*shrugs*

It seemed to work well at the time. And that's more what I prefer. The constant looking back and deriding it when the film actually worked pretty well especially the time. No doubt someone could do better than what was done.

 

[Charles Phipps]

There's a big difference between being "perfectly behaved AT ALL TIMES" and being an out-and-out racist.

I mean, let's just make a few minor substitutions and tell me if you think the characters would say any of this.

"Arabs are animals!"
"Jim, there is an historic opportunity here."
"Don't believe them! Don't trust them!"
"They are dying."
"LET THE ARABS DIE!"

"I have never trusted Asians. And I never will."

"Did you see the way those Black people ate?"
"Terrible table manners."

"Native Americans don't place the same value on life that we do, Spock, you know that."

"Fascists are animals!"
"Jim, there is an historic opportunity here."
"Don't believe them! Don't trust them!"
"They are dying."
"LET THE FASCISTS DIE!"

"I have never trusted Stalinists. And I never will."

There's a problem with associating real life persecuted minorities with slave-holding imperialist powers. If Captain Kirk was an Indian man talking about the British during the 19th century, I think you might have a slightly different reaction to his viewpoint.

And yes, Checov is an outright racist against Klingons. Which is part of the joke because the Klingons EXPLICITLY represent the Soviet Union and if you try to say the Soviet Union is the same as black people, you're insulting the latter.

He actually is established as one in TOS' "Day of the Dove"

 

[Ssosmcin]

"Fascists are animals!"
"Jim, there is an historic opportunity here."
"Don't believe them! Don't trust them!"
"They are dying."
"LET THE FASCISTS DIE!"

"I have never trusted Stalinists. And I never will."

There's a problem with associating real life persecuted minorities with slave-holding imperialist powers. If Captain Kirk was an Indian man talking about the British during the 19th century, I think you might have a slightly different reaction to his viewpoint.

I think they all suck, no matter what group you put in. Whenever you wish the death of an entire species based on the actions of radical groups or their government, you qualify as, at best, prejudiced.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Yeah, it's hard to spin "alien trash" as applying only to their system of government.

I'll say it again - when two of the three Black actors in the cast are saying that the script is racist, the producers really should have listened.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I think they all suck, no matter what group you put in. Whenever you wish the death of an entire species based on the actions of radical groups or their government, you qualify as, at best, prejudiced.

But why does the cheerleaders of this movie don't get this? It was a radical transition of thought from Star Trek V, the context does not justify these kinds of disgusting words towards Klingons.

Yeah, it's hard to spin "alien trash" as applying only to their system of government.

I'll say it again - when two of the three Black actors in the cast are saying that the script is racist, the producers really should have listened.

William Shatner openly thought the script was disturbing to portray the characters, in particular HIS character, that way because this man would know this character better than the Greatest Director* in this forum.

*And probably writer I should add.

 

[David cgc]

"I'm concerned this movie about racism might depict some racism in it" might not be the open-and-shut argument you seem to think it is.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, it's hard to spin "alien trash" as applying only to their system of government.

I'll say it again - when two of the three Black actors in the cast are saying that the script is racist, the producers really should have listened.

Yes, Cartwright is racist, and he is the villain.

It is a movie about hatred and putting aside generational grievances.

Which is not as easy as "racism" alone given the Klingons are a conquering power.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, Cartwright is racist, and he is the villain.

It is a movie about hatred and putting aside generational grievances.

Which is not as easy as "racism" alone given the Klingons are a conquering power.

The film actually goes out of its way to say that the Klingons are victims, even though they had long been shown as a conquering, expansionist, enslaving power. Kor is willing to torture and bring on a war for glory." Kang states unequivocally his hatred of humans. Starfleet has trained it's officers to respond with weapons upon sighting a Klingon.

There's a ton of history there, and the idea that Kirk had a half-hearted reception after they defeated a mutual enemy is a sign that he has no animosity towards Klingons, or what they do and have done in the past, is simplistic thinking at best.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The film actually goes out of its way to say that the Klingons are victims, even though they had long been shown as a conquering, expansionist, enslaving power. Kor is willing to torture and bring on a war for glory." Kang states unequivocally his hatred of humans. Starfleet has trained it's officers to respond with weapons upon sighting a Klingon.

There's a ton of history there, and the idea that Kirk had a half-hearted reception after they defeated a mutual enemy is a sign that he has no animosity towards Klingons, or what they do and have done in the past, is simplistic thinking at best.

Basically, what I think it the movie is PRO-PEACEMAKING which is a very different thing than just outright saying its about acceptance.

When Kirk talks to Chang about Hitler, it's very much unintentional but it's how he feels about Chang.

It's a complicated issue and very relevant to the Cold War.

 

[fireproof78]

Basically, what I think it the movie is PRO-PEACEMAKING which is a very different thing than just outright saying its about acceptance.

When Kirk talks to Chang about Hitler, it's very much unintentional but it's how he feels about Chang.

It's a complicated issue and very relevant to the Cold War.

Very much reflective of his speech about legitimate grievances against the Klingons:

AYELBORNE: Unless both sides agree to an immediate cessation of hostilities, all your armed forces, wherever they may be, will be immediately immobilised.
KIRK: We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons. They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens. They're openly aggressive. They've boasted that they'll take over half the galaxy.
KOR: Why not? We're the stronger! You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade! You've been asking for war!
KIRK: You're the ones who issued the ultimatum to withdraw from the disputed areas!
KOR: They are not disputed! They're clearly ours. And now you step in with some kind of trick.
AYELBORNE: It is no trick, Commander. We have simply put an end to your war. All your military forces, wherever they are, are now completely paralysed.
CLAYMARE: We find interference in other people's affairs most disgusting, but you gentlemen have given us no choice.
KIRK: You should be the first to be on our side. Two hundred hostages killed.
AYELBORNE: No one has been killed, Captain.
CLAYMARE: No one has died here in uncounted thousands of years.
KOR: You are liars. You are meddling in things that are none of your business.
KIRK: Even if you have some power that we don't understand, you have no right to dictate to our Federation
KOR: Or our Empire!
KIRK: How to handle their interstellar relations! We have the right
AYELBORNE: To wage war, Captain? To kill millions of innocent people? To destroy life on a planetary scale? Is that what you're defending?
KIRK: Well, no one wants war. But there are proper channels. People have a right to handle their own affairs. Eventually, we will have
AYELBORNE: Oh, eventually you will have peace, but only after millions of people have died. It is true that in the future, you and the Klingons will become fast friends. You will work together.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

"I'm concerned this movie about racism might depict some racism in it" might not be the open-and-shut argument you seem to think it is.

Good thing that's not the argument, then.

The actual argument is "the writers made established characters suddenly-racist and wildly out of character just so they could tell a lazy, half-baked story about racism."

 

[Qonundrum]

Good thing that's not the argument, then.

The actual argument is "the writers made established characters suddenly-racist and wildly out of character just so they could tell a lazy, half-baked story about racism."

I appreciated aspects of the movie, along with pacing and tautness, but a recent listen to a certain podcast review reveals more than anything that many, including myself for sure, picked up on in 1991. Okay, a couple scenes I think he's stretching to find something, but most of it fits. There's a ton of complexity in ST6 and more than meets the eye.

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I used to think it was loose around the edges, but am wanting to give the movie another go. Even with the pink blood because that was to keep the movie from getting an "R" rating, though his claims seem to fit the story's narrative too.

Is the plotting half-baked? Perhaps in some ways... is it being racist? Perhaps but not necessarily for the immediate reasons one may perceive while watching. Indeed, some scenes were cut because they made Kirk question his own racism as the makers wanted a more hard-edge to him. If the scenes still exist, a deleted scenes section may be of benefit to view...

I need to see this one again. Amazed it got made and apparently they wanted Kirstie Alley but the budget wouldn't allow for it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think in some respects the UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY suffers from the fact it is not applicable but metaphorical. JRR Tolkien said everything in his books was applicable to discussing war, fascism, racism, and other ideas but he never wanted to be metaphorical. Metaphor is about ONE thing and one very SPECIFIC thing.

TUC is about making peace with the Soviet Union.

It's not about racism.

It's not about peace-making in general.

It's about a very specific making peace with the Soviets and bringing an end to the Cold War. All it through a Star Trek lens: Gorbachev, Chernobyl, Siberian gulags, and so on.

When talking about racism about Klingons, they mean Russians.

You can't escape it and it's somethinh the movie is stronger for it and weaker.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Well, kinda.

They set out to make a "Collapse of the Soviet Union" allegory. Ham-fisted and amateurish though it was (come on, they couldn't manage to be any more subtle than "Colonel West"?).

But what they ended up with was very much a movie about racism. When the two competing "nations" are literally different species, it's perhaps inevitable that the story becomes steeped in racism. And the producers embraced that racism, doubled down on it to the point where two of the three Black actors were objecting to their dialogue, even refusing outright to say the lines they were given.

 

[suarezguy]

When the two competing "nations" are literally different species, it's perhaps inevitable that the story becomes steeped in racism. And the producers embraced that racism, doubled down on it to the point where two of the three Black actors were objecting to their dialogue, even refusing outright to say the lines they were given.

They kind of had to in order to for Kirk and the crew to grow uncomfortable with themselves and reject it.

I do find both Chekov muttering "Guess who's coming to dinner", and more so complaints that the comment was inappropriate or racist, ironic in that the film of the same name is very much about rejecting racism.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Tell you what, I'll side with Nichelle Nichols on this one. I'm not going to tell her she's wrong about the line being racist.

 

[Maurice]

This book indicates that Nichols insisted that the line be cut, even though it wasn't hers. But she was less successful with her "dinner" line; after she refused to deliver it, the line was given to Walter Koenig. All for a bad joke.

With two of the three Black actors in the cast insisting that the script was racist, maybe the producers should have listened to them.

Of course such lines were racist/species-ist. That was the point. The issue was the actors who'd been on the receiving end of such racism were not comfortable playing such dialog.