What were the Prophets doing while Keiko 2.0 was plotting their genocide?

[Captain Jerk]

They knew The O'Brien would thwart her posessor.

Exactly that's the most logical. Too bad the episode totally ignored addressing this in any way, all characters behaved as if the prophets were easy targets and that O'Brien truly was their only hope.

(After O'Brien saves their hides, the Prophets communicate with him in the celestial plane of existence.)

PROPHETS: The O'Brien has completed his task...
O'BRIEN: You mean you knew this was going to happen all along? Would have been nice if you let me in on it, no? Why me? Why can't you people just leave me the hell alone?
PROPHETS: Because it could be no one else. You are the O'Brien.
O'BRIEN: And why do you keep having to put "the" in front of my name like that, what are you guys, assholes or something?
PROPHETS: The O'Brien is aggressive. Adversarial. Pissed off.
O'BRIEN: Listen, I'm getting real tired of you guys giving me the third degree, send me back home to my wife, Keiko, so SHE can give me the third degree!

* They possess a vulnerability; the Q don't possess any vulnerabilities.
* They act through intermediaries; the Q show up and get stuff done personally.
* Their sphere of influence and means of interaction are limited in certain ways; the Q don't seem limited to any region of the universe nor do they primarily communicate in a dreamy extradimensional space while wearing the skins of others.

As I said...the Q are better claimants for godhood.

Very good Ragitsu. Except no one was arguing against this. Lol I was just reacting to you saying the Prophets weren't gods at all bud. If you need it to be a competition, yes Q is more powerful in lots of ways. If they are your standard for what constitutes a god, that's fine.

 

[gweeps]

Still makes me wish Q had mentioned some of these other powerful beings. Imagine what Nagilum thought of the Q?

 

[gweeps]

Exactly that's the most logical. Too bad the episode totally ignored addressing this in any way, all characters behaved as if the prophets were easy targets and that O'Brien truly was their only hope.

(After O'Brien saves their hides, the Prophets communicate with him in the celestial plane of existence.)

PROPHETS: The O'Brien has completed his task...
O'BRIEN: You mean you knew this was going to happen all along? Would have been nice if you let me in on it, no? Why me? Why can't you people just leave me the hell alone?
PROPHETS: Because it could be no one else. You are the O'Brien.
O'BRIEN: And why do you keep having to put "the" in front of my name like that, what are you guys, assholes or something?
PROPHETS: The O'Brien is aggressive. Adversarial. Pissed off.
O'BRIEN: Listen, I'm getting real tired of you guys giving me the third degree, send me back home to my wife, Keiko, so SHE can give me the third degree!

"The O'Brien is impatient."
"Look, at least call me Miles."
"The Miles-"
"Bloody hell!"

 

[Ragitsu]

Their vulnerability is other Q.

Other beings at parity, then.

 

[Legate Duhmar]

* They possess a vulnerability; the Q don't possess any vulnerabilities.
* They act through intermediaries; the Q show up and get stuff done personally.
* Their sphere of influence and means of interaction are limited in certain ways; the Q don't seem limited to any region of the universe nor do they primarily communicate in a dreamy extradimensional space while wearing the skins of others.

As I said...the Q are better claimants for godhood.

The Q essentially represent what the 'ego' would think godhood is, the ability to consciously, deliberately and effortlessly bend space and time to one's own desires. Its all about existing in the material world and being the ultimate master of it, a god among men as it were.

The Prophets on the other hand are what the 'id' would think godhood is, being so far removed from our simple base reality of time and space as to be safely above all the petty concerns and desires of the "corporeal world".

Q is the god we'd all think we'd be if granted ultimate power, whereas the Prophets are the gods we'd actually become.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think the prophets and pah-wraiths are interesting but I think they should have had more thought into them from the beginning and not just making it up as they went along. I also found it weird how one went and basically wore Sarah as a meatsuit for a bit so it could bone Joseph and birth Ben. I guess it's in their nature to be a bunch of pricks but still. Also that kind of divine origin stuff tacked on always shits me because Ben was special already because he liked Bajor and gave a crap about the place enough to sell his potential happiness away. He didn't need to be Space Royalty, son of the gods and all that stuff. I felt the Prophets liked him because he was just the first dope to show up into their house and not get kicked out immediately. Maybe if Odo had been older and crashed his spacepod inside the wormhole he could have been the Emissary. Did Meatsuit Sarah also bone Joseph in the mirror universe and all the alternate timelines that pop up? How do we even know the Pah Wraiths are even the bad guys? Maybe they're a bunch of outcasts because they think the Prophets dicking with Bajor and Sisko and Meatsuit Sarah was pretty atrocious and got themselves kicked out and the Prophets just have better marketing. Looking at their story as a whole, with them knowing how it would end in the Fire Caves, did they ever give a shit or were just playing the long game so that it would benefit them.

 

[Ragitsu]

The Q essentially represent what the 'ego' would think godhood is, the ability to consciously, deliberately and effortlessly bend space and time to one's own desires. Its all about existing in the material world and being the ultimate master of it, a god among men as it were.

The Prophets on the other hand are what the 'id' would think godhood is, being so far removed from our simple base reality of time and space as to be safely above all the petty concerns and desires of the "corporeal world".

Q is the god we'd all think we'd be if granted ultimate power, whereas the Prophets are the gods we'd actually become.

Fascinating perspective. To me, the Q - on the whole - seem more like the Id: impulsive and personal. The Prophets are closer to the Superego: analytical and detached.

 

[Legate Duhmar]

Fascinating perspective. To me, the Q - on the whole - seem more like the Id: impulsive and personal. The Prophets are closer to the Superego: analytical and detached.

Good point and I thought about that perspective as well but the Prophets are just not concerned at all with how they are viewed and seem beyond the concept of an 'ego' as we understand it whereas the Q definitely have a somewhat understandable psychology. To me that makes Q closer to "us", than beings like the Prophets. Also, using the term 'god' is relative as any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as 'godlike' to those without the knowledge or incapable of processing it, so by that definition, combined with seeming immorality, means both qualify.

But to me the fact the prophets live entirely outside the influence of time itself while the Q do live in the space-time continum in linear time is the real separator between 'god' and 'mortal. This is confirmed in canon when Q shows the Continum organizing their knowledge as "The Old", represented by a thick book, and "The New" represented by a thin magazine. This implies the Q live in spacetime and are affected by time's passing, regardless of lifespan and even if the effect is less than on the minds of humanoids. The Q are fundamentally godlike but explainable and categorizable as any living being but the Prophets cannot be as easily understood or measured and in fact can hardly be communicated with as our base concepts of reality in no way match theirs.

Godlike ranking list
1. Prophets
2. Q
3. Sass talking floating head on Sha ka ree

 

[Ragitsu]

Good point and I thought about that perspective as well but the Prophets are just not concerned at all with how they are viewed and seem beyond the concept of an 'ego' as we understand it whereas the Q definitely have a somewhat understandable psychology. To me that makes Q closer to "us", than beings like the Prophets. Also, using the term 'god' is relative as any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as 'godlike' to those without the knowledge or incapable of processing it, so by that definition, combined with seeming immorality, means both qualify.

But to me the fact the prophets live entirely outside the influence of time itself while the Q do live in the space-time continum in linear time is the real separator between 'god' and 'mortal. This is confirmed in canon when Q shows the Continum organizing their knowledge as "The Old", represented by a thick book, and "The New" represented by a thin magazine. This implies the Q live in spacetime and are affected by time's passing, regardless of lifespan and even if the effect is less than on the minds of humanoids. The Q are fundamentally godlike but explainable and categorizable as any living being but the Prophets cannot be as easily understood or measured and in fact can hardly be communicated with as our base concepts of reality in no way match theirs.

Godlike ranking list
1. Prophets
2. Q
3. Sass talking floating head on Sha ka ree

Wasn't the point of that roadside community to present an environment barely comprehensible to humanity (okay, Tuvok too)? It's safe to say that the Q have already experienced every moment of existence everywhere; those books were simply a way of indicating rough periods of temporal progression/universal development to life forms used to thinking in a linear fashion. Myself, I'd be surprised if the Q couldn't perceive and/or exist in a nonlinear state if they so desired.

On the other hand, the wormhole aliens (supposed gods) required a mortal being to translate concepts of "before", "now" and "after"; that deficiency alone knocks them down a peg in the realm of godlike intellect.

 

[gweeps]

Here's an interesting ranking of Star Trek gods:

https://screenrant.com/star-trek-powerful-beings-ranked/

 

[Trekker09]

They knew The O'Brien would thwart her possessor.

I’d agree, the Prophets / wormhole aliens had foreknowledge of O’Brien foiling the Pah’Wraiths plot.
Seems like the larger question is why the Prophets allowed the Cardassians to oppress Bajor for 50 years….because they knew it would indirectly bring in Sisko as Emissary? To shape the Bajorans’ character as suffering servants? Or it could be the Prophets are written as capricious beings intervening at random like the Greek gods. The series was building toward a final showdown between good and evil, reminiscent of the vision in Revelation, but they didn’t portray the Prophets as all-powerful, or even consistent – just a local representation of ‘the good’ relative to the ‘the evil’ Pah’Wraiths…not absolutes.

IIRC the only times the Judeo-Christian concept of the ultimate Creator is alluded to (if at all) is in “Bread and Circuses” – the aliens worshipping the son of God…and “Who mourns for Adonais” when Kirk says “Mankind has no need of gods. We find ‘the one’ quite adequate.”

 

[at Quark's]

I agree, 'god' is a very broad term. In theory it could apply to 'the god that lives in that particular tree' (which would be more like a nature spirit, with or without some assumed powers) all the way up to 'the infinite, omniscient and omnipotent god that created and sustains all of existence and simultaneously transcends it', and anything in between (e.g. the greek gods).

Here's an interesting ranking of Star Trek gods:

https://screenrant.com/star-trek-powerful-beings-ranked/

Interesting yes, but I don't agree with some of the ranking. The author seems to confuse threat level with intrinsic powers. The Borg or the Founders or species 8472 for sure are a greater threat to the Federation than the Prophets, but I'm not convinced that means they are more powerful than the Prophets - perhaps they could easily remove them from the timeline (or change their character) if they felt it necessary to do so.

 

[Ragitsu]

Kirk says “Mankind has no need of gods. We find ‘the one’ quite adequate.”

^ A line which has aged poorly.

 

[Trekker09]

^ A line which has aged poorly.

Yeh, it sounds dismissive of polytheistic cultures….and, Kirk is not supposed to be religious. I’ve heard that Roddenberry added that line to mollify sensibilities of the audience and/or network.
My point was that we can’t expect rational consistency in the Prophets’ actions---and that there is no ultimate God in the Trek universe.

 

[gweeps]

^ A line which has aged poorly.

Jesus is, ostensibly, the most well-known of the gods we're told about.

Haven't seen the episode in 3 decades, but I bet Kirk was basically saying, we have enough gods, thank you very much.

 

[Orphalesion]

My point was that we can’t expect rational consistency in the Prophets’ actions---and that there is no ultimate God in the Trek universe.

You forget the Koala.

 

[Captain Jerk]

that kind of divine origin stuff tacked on always shits me because Ben was special already because he liked Bajor and gave a crap about the place enough to sell his potential happiness away. He didn't need to be Space Royalty, son of the gods and all that stuff.

I guess they wanted to tell a "superhero" type story eh. If DS9 were the 80's film Clash of the Titans, the Prophets would be the top god Zeus and the pah-wraiths the lesser gods acting against him or his wishes. Zeus fathered Perseus thru union with a mortal human, like the female prophet (if they actually have genders) mothered Ben thru union with a human. Zeus gave Perseus guidance and help along the way just like the prophets helped Ben and "nudged" him along his way. Zeus appeared to have foreknowledge of things and so had an advantage over the "lesser gods", similar to how it appeared the prophets had advantages over the wraiths. When his mother Sarah warned him not to marry Kasidy and Ben did anyway because he loves her, I was reminded of the scene in Superman 2 when Lara sort of warned Kal-El with "are you sure", like she knew it would be a mistake to give up his powers to be with Lois. And the final Dukat/Sisko confrontation had Zod/Superman similarities, but probably more similarities to the Star Wars films, with Dukat 2.0 sort of playing the part of both the Emperor and Vader in one, and Sisko of course playing the part of Luke. Pah-wraiths = the Sith, and Prophets = the Jedis with Ben acting on their behalf to restore "balance to the Force" by putting the wraiths back in their place. (Kai Winn was sort of Vader too, having first succumbed to the "dark side" but having a change of heart in the end when it mattered most.)

SARAH:
If you marry the Yates, you will know nothing but sorrow.
You will become an ordinary man.
You will feel like an ordinary man.
You can be hurt like an ordinary man.
My son...are you sure?

BEN: Mother...I love her. And what exactly is your thing against "ordinary men"??

SARAH: Your father was an ordinary man...that's why I dumped his ass.

JOSEPH: I'm standing right here you know

Did Meatsuit Sarah also bone Joseph in the mirror universe and all the alternate timelines that pop up?

The mirror universe was rife with logical problems... Apparently the prophets never revealed themselves or opened the wormhole in that universe or timeline. I guess they didn't give a shit about the scummy Bajorans of that universe. And yet somehow Sisko was still conceived over there.

How do we even know the Pah Wraiths are even the bad guys? Maybe they're a bunch of outcasts because they think the Prophets dicking with Bajor and Sisko and Meatsuit Sarah was pretty atrocious and got themselves kicked out and the Prophets just have better marketing.

Might have been interesting if they did some sort of role reversal thing like that, where the bad guys were actually the good guys all along, but of course the show never did that and made it clear the Pah-wraiths were the villains of the story, without any real "grey" in their character at all; just straight-up pieces of shit. lol

 

[Captain Jerk]

Seems like the larger question is why the Prophets allowed the Cardassians to oppress Bajor for 50 years….because they knew it would indirectly bring in Sisko as Emissary?

The closest we get to any real answers are probably Sarah's conversations with Sisko, where she talks about his having a destiny and many tasks to complete. Arguably the biggest of those tasks being stopping Dukat 2.0 in the series finale, since apparently the pah-wraiths weren't going to stop at just Bajor or the alpha quadrant, but would somehow lay waste to the entire universe. Makes one wonder where all the other "super beings" in the cosmos were during this pivotal moment; just watching from the sidelines with some popcorn I suppose? It's also silly to me that it "could be no one else" but Sisko. We've seen the prophets can leave the wormhole in energy/spirit form and possess corporeal beings. Why didn't they just do that every time they needed a task done dealing with the pah-wraiths. It's all quite riddled with holes when one spends any amount of time dissecting this stuff.

 

[Ragitsu]

Fifty years, fifty microseconds, fifty million years...it's all the same when you're nonlinear, baby.

 

[Watersluis]

Perhaps you're right. I guess I personally enjoy twisting myself into a pretzel trying to make sense of things that don't make sense.

Indeed, trying to search for explanations that make sense in fiction is as fruitless as trying to search for constitutionality in U.S.A. supreme court rulings.

It is made up as it goes along, and I, for one, enjoy watching the shitstorm unfold.