Was Dukat really evil?

[Captain Jerk]

If that pre-Waltz conversation between Dukat and Weyoun where the former tries to impress upon the latter that you MUST bring your enemy to heel so they'll never defy you again hasn't convinced people that Dukat was evil, then nothing will.

^you mean that ' A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.' speech?

I always saw that as proof of his narcissism and self-delusion in the first place. (and yes, of his evil as a corollary of that).

And just a reminder that Dukat held the cooler head of the two here, Weyoun simply wanted to wipe out Earth and be done with it, and Dukat would only go that far if "absolutely necessary". I would say that Dukat for all his flaws was "less evil" than Weyoun (and of course the Dominion/Founders lived up to threats like this when then started wiping out the Cardassian population indiscriminately). Dukat of course later wanted to burn down the entire quadrant but that was after his nervous breakdown over Ziyal's death and he truly didn't give a shit anymore about anything or anyone.

*hides in corner waiting for Sci to flame me/my post line by line, maybe even word by word this time*

 

[Ragitsu]

And just a reminder that Dukat held the cooler head of the two here, Weyoun simply wanted to wipe out Earth and be done with it, and Dukat would only go that far if "absolutely necessary".

Crushing a populace under an iron boot for the sake of one's ego (a situation where deaths are still likely to occur) is its own kind of depraved. Also, while blatant genocide is of course bad, at least the Dominion would go about their murdering with practically zero emotional investment, whereas Dukat...he's not nearly as stoic as his façade says.

 

[Captain Jerk]

Crushing a populace under an iron boot for the sake of one's ego (a situation where deaths are still likely to occur) is its own kind of depraved. Also, while blatant genocide is of course bad, at least the Dominion would go about their murdering with practically zero emotional investment, whereas Dukat...he's not nearly as stoic as his façade says.

Would you say the head of the Weyoun/Dominion snake herself, the female Founder, was more "ruthless" than Dukat? (Well pre-finale Dukat anyway.) As if she takes emotion and any compassion out of the equation, she is capable of far worse crimes like wiping out entire species and civilizations simply for a potential threat they may pose, like stepping on ants since she views "solids" as inconsequential, an attitude even Odo came to share for a brief time when he was "drunk" on the link. Dukat simply wants to be loved and adored, can't you see he's just misunderstood? lol Dukat's attitude is basically "Love me or die", whereas the female Founder's attitude is just "Die".

 

[fireproof78]

^you mean that ' A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.' speech?

I always saw that as proof of his narcissism and self-delusion in the first place. (and yes, of his evil as a corollary of that).

Same. His attitude isn't simply one of might makes right, but that his view is the only view that is right. He would prefer to dominate them mentally before destroying them physically. Weyoun is calculating the odds and working to reduce resistance against the Dominion. He's a good administrator. Dukat is all subjugation.

 

[at Quark's]

Also, Weyoun is not doing it for his own glory, he's just 'doing his job' to serve the Founders (I don't mean that in the sense it would lessen his culpability). He may be evil, but that's how he was bred, and there's no egotism involved - (well, except perhaps when he seems disappointed when he hears the female founder has promised earth to the Breen). With Dukat on the other hand, it's all about himself.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Dukat is showing that he needs validation from his enemies. Which is why he's constantly pestering Kira and Sisko to treat him like a friend or their archnemesis.

Weyoun is like, "Earthlings be annoying. Let's get rid of them."

Female Changeling being, "Yeah, yeah, whatever."

They don't need validation from their enemies.

Interestingly, I liked that this attitude is so alien to the Federation that the Augments never incorporated the idea the Dominion would just destroy Earth (and possibly humanity) when making their calculations. They assume a basic level of empathy.

 

[Captain Jerk]

In the series finale, Dukat was possessed by a Pah-wraith (red eyes). How much of what he said were really his own words (like wanting to set the universe on fire) and how much was the influence of the Wraith? Or were they basically of the same mind on the subject? They chose him as their Emissary for that reason? Because of the darkness and hatred he had inside him that mirrored their own?


EMPEROR DUKAT: The Federation...will die. As will your friends. Good, I can feel your anger, Benjamin. I am defenceless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Pah-wraiths will be complete!

BEN (KENOBI) SISKO: I'll never turn to the Pah-wraiths! You've failed, your highness. I am a Prophet, like my mother before me.

EMPEROR DUKAT: So be it. Prophet.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Dukat isn't remotely mind-controlled as if the Pah Wraiths wanted to possess him, they certainly could do so as they did Keiko. It's not like they also are running low on worshipers willing to sell their soul to them either as we see with Kai Winn being willing to sell her soul to the Devil. In the end, the Pah Wraiths DO like Dukat or are at least willing to use him.

I suspect it's because they get that Dukat is willing to go whatever lengths they ask of him: destroy Bajor, destroy the Wormhole, destroy the Alpha Quadrant, or whatever else they want. Dukat will do it because he has messianic delusions and they feed his sense of grandiosity.

Dukat: I am your chosen one! Give me the power so I may slay all your enemies.

Pah Wraith: Okay....sure.

 

[Captain Jerk]

Dukat isn't remotely mind-controlled as if the Pah Wraiths wanted to possess him, they certainly could do so as they did Keiko. It's not like they also are running low on worshipers willing to sell their soul to them either as we see with Kai Winn being willing to sell her soul to the Devil. In the end, the Pah Wraiths DO like Dukat or are at least willing to use him.

I suspect it's because they get that Dukat is willing to go whatever lengths they ask of him: destroy Bajor, destroy the Wormhole, destroy the Alpha Quadrant, or whatever else they want. Dukat will do it because he has messianic delusions and they feed his sense of grandiosity.

It's good that you raised the Keiko example, that episode showed that a Pah-wraith could have complete control over any random person they chose. Why did they need their own "Emissary"? Why not just possess Kai Winn? They would then know what she knew, just like the demon knew what Keiko knew while inhabiting her. Then they would be able to obtain the Book of Pure Evil (minus Todd ) and chant the magic spells themselves. Are they bound by some sort of "other worldly" rules they have to follow? Sort of like Jacob and the Man in Black on Lost?

 

[Charles Phipps]

It's good that you raised the Keiko example, that episode showed that a Pah-wraith could have complete control over any random person they chose. Why did they need their own "Emissary"? Why not just possess Kai Winn? They would then know what she knew, just like the demon knew what Keiko knew while inhabiting her. Then they would be able to obtain the Book of Pure Evil (minus Todd ) and chant the magic spells themselves. Are they bound by some sort of "other worldly" rules they have to follow? Sort of like Jacob and the Man in Black on Lost?

I think it's a point that Kai Winn outright OFFERS herself to the Pah Wraiths and gets refused.

So there is much more going on here.

I think the most pragmatic and not spiritual answer is that Keiko is a Pah Wraith who was permanently destroyed while Gul Dukat almost got the Prophets destroyed numerous times as well as has a lot of military as well as political influence. He even showed he could convince Bajorans (and convinced their POPE) to turn on them.

So they gave Dukat a longer leash because he's very good at what he does.

 

[at Quark's]

Most of the time, Dukat looks as if he's doing the things he does out of his own free will. But for example the killing Jadzia scene certainly looks like a form of possession where Dukat's actions are not entirely under his own control.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Most of the time, Dukat looks as if he's doing the things he does out of his own free will. But for example the killing Jadzia scene certainly looks like a form of possession where Dukat's actions are not entirely under his own control.

I think he's 100% under his own control. He didn't want to kill Jadzia but did in a moment of petty anger.

 

[at Quark's]

^Always had the impression that was not his anger, but the rage of the Pah Wraith posessing him, eliminating anything in its path that was in the way of getting to that orb it wanted to destroy. Also because Dukat is using Pah Wraith powers to kill Jadzia.

But of course, that's a matter of interpretation and your interpretation is also entirely possible.

 

[Captain Jerk]

I think it's a point that Kai Winn outright OFFERS herself to the Pah Wraiths and gets refused.

So there is much more going on here.

I think the most pragmatic and not spiritual answer is that Keiko is a Pah Wraith who was permanently destroyed while Gul Dukat almost got the Prophets destroyed numerous times as well as has a lot of military as well as political influence. He even showed he could convince Bajorans (and convinced their POPE) to turn on them.

So they gave Dukat a longer leash because he's very good at what he does.

Seems to me that both the Prophets and the Pah-wraiths are bound by some sort of "rules to the game" in their eternal struggle between Good and Evil, with an element of the requirement of "free will" on the part of mortals. A lot like the tv series Lost. This makes the Prophets and Pah-wraiths even more like the classic idea of "gods". Like during the Reckoning, both Kira and Jake apparently had to freely choose to allow themselves to be possessed before the battle. But the Keiko thing was not really in line with this all, the idea that there always had go be a "mortal representative" for both sides. O'Brien had to outwit that demon all on his own. That demon was apparently able to go outside the rules and presumably could have wiped out the Prophets if she succeeded. One could of course argue that the Prophets foresaw no reason or need to intervene because they knew the outcome (time cheats), but this same line of reasoning should have made the Keiko demon know that her plan was doomed to fail from the start. Also I can't remember if Keiko even willingly allowed herself to be possessed or not in that episode, or if it was done against her will. It's all quite silly but that's what happens when you try to mix the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Star Wars etc with Star Trek I guess. Speaking of Star Wars, before the final encounter between Dukat and Sisko, Sisko and Kasidy were dancing in a holosuite together when Sisko suddenly stopped, having apparently sensed a strange disturbance in "the Force"...

^Always had the impression that was not his anger, but the rage of the Pah Wraith posessing him, eliminating anything in its path that was in the way of getting to that orb it wanted to destroy. Also because Dukat is using Pah Wraith powers to kill Jadzia.

I agree that it wasn't entirely Dukat. This is supported by the fact that after the demon vacated his body he then "apologized" to Jadzia. He still took responsibility for it but I don't think the red-eyed possessed Dukat would have done the same afterward, just Dukat on his own. Interestingly this "rage" of the Pah-wraiths can also be seen as having provided part of the fuel behind Dukat's final words about wanting to set the entire universe on fire.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think Keiko was possessed because she was inside the Fire Caves and vulnerable.

 

[Captrek]

Like during the Reckoning, both Kira and Jake apparently had to freely choose to allow themselves to be possessed before the battle.

I see no reason to believe that Jake chose to be the Wraiths’ vessel.

I’m not sure that Kira had a choice either. Odo states, probably correctly, that if she’d been given a choice, she would have chosen to let the Prophets have their way with her. That doesn’t necessarily mean that she was actually given that choice.

 

[Ragitsu]

I think Keiko was possessed because she was inside the Fire Caves and vulnerable.

Keiko was possessed?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Keiko was possessed?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Assignment_(episode)

Yes.

Back in their quarters, Keiko reveals that she was conscious the entire time, but the Pah-wraith was in complete control of her body. Her mind was a helpless observer, "like being stuck in sand and squeezed" whenever she tried to move, hearing and feeling herself speak and unable to affect any of it. She was, however, able to feel its emotions sometimes, but there was only a cold rage. Keiko tells Miles that she doubts the Pah-wraith would have spared either of them.

 

[Ragitsu]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Assignment_(episode)

Yes.

Back in their quarters, Keiko reveals that she was conscious the entire time, but the Pah-wraith was in complete control of her body. Her mind was a helpless observer, "like being stuck in sand and squeezed" whenever she tried to move, hearing and feeling herself speak and unable to affect any of it. She was, however, able to feel its emotions sometimes, but there was only a cold rage. Keiko tells Miles that she doubts the Pah-wraith would have spared either of them.

<tongue firmly in cheek>

 

[Charles Phipps]

<tongue firmly in cheek>

Ah, gotcha.

I dunno, sometimes I think that....and this is crazy....fans might not remember details from shows from 30 years ago.