Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x07 - "Monsters"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
if I wanted to see fantasy in space I’d watch Star Wars. And even there I’ve never seen something that stupid.Mystic Arts 101. Break the spell and close the portal.
Not to mention data suddenly wanting to die at the very moment he had an opportunity to become truly human. Or how he was somehow resurrected, memories and all, from a stray neuron. Or how they totally forgot a character mid-episode.
Come on. Let’s not pretend that Star Trek hasn’t always had a heavy fantasy element. I don’t want to roll out a huge list of examples but they start in TOS and run on through every subsequent Star Trek series right up to the present day.
The irony is that if some pointless technobabble explanation had been given by Guinan while using the Q-summoner, it would've sufficed for some fans who are otherwise very disgruntled about it. But for all intents & purposes, it's no different than the summoning device that the Equinox crew used in VOY to capture the aliens they were exploiting. Of course, we never hear fans losing their minds over that. Only if it's "nu-."
The really silly thing is complaining about magical elements of a Trek story whilst apparently being fine with the concept of Q within same tale.
Magic Space God = Fine.
Magic Space Bottle = OMFG what is this shit?
Or how the Starnes Expedition children summoned the Gorgan. He's a noncorporeal being that appears out of thin air and can kill people. Nowadays we'd be more likely than not to get a technobabble explanation for how the children can summon him but even if we got the same episode as in 1968 it's just another fantasy element of Star Trek. Not everything requires some explanation to feel more "real."
None of this is real. We can't always demand that it feel real. Well...we CAN, but don't expect to be satisfied in any meaningful way.
Fans' expectations tend to be way too high or minimal and both lead to lots of facepalming.
None of this is real. We can't always demand that it feel real. Well...we CAN, but don't expect to be satisfied in any meaningful way.
Fans' expectations tend to be way too high or minimal and both lead to lots of facepalming.
Well it is a catchy tune. The kids on Federation Bandstand gave it high marks.
It won't satisfy because it's a different approach. The current approach is very broad and varied from Trek's history. The fan expectation appears to be always top shelf Trek, no slack given. The fascinating part is that the demand is for more Trek references, but apparently only the good ones.
The Star Trek/Star Wars comparison is as old as the hills regarding the use of fantasy elements, but I’d say the former is just as egregious as the latter.
Star Wars wears fantasy on its’ sleeve, Star Trek rolls it up like a dodgy porno mag and stuffs it inside its’ sleeve.
Star Wars wears fantasy on its’ sleeve, Star Trek rolls it up like a dodgy porno mag and stuffs it inside its’ sleeve.
Personally I think that when viewers have this kind of reaction we'd get more out of examining how the story is causing this reaction, instead of criticising them for having it. It shows that just because fans can come to accept a godlike being, it doesn't mean they'll accept every other fantasy element you throw at them, especially when it's an object that's allegedly imbued with supernatural power instead of an intelligent being that may be making use of Clarke's third law.
But then I thought the magic space bottle was dumb, so I would say that.
Personally I think that when viewers have this kind of reaction we'd get more out of examining how the story is causing this reaction, instead of criticising them for having it. It shows that just because fans can come to accept a godlike being, it doesn't mean they'll accept every other fantasy element you throw at them, especially when it's an object that's allegedly imbued with supernatural power instead of an intelligent being that may be making use of Clarke's third law.
But then I thought the magic space bottle was dumb, so I would say that.
If a magic space bottle showed up in something like The Expanse I'd take issue.
I actually have no issue with someone finding such a thing silly generally. It is silly.
But what's sillier is going down the whole "I'd watch Star Wars if I wanted this stuff" route. Weird supernatural objects/beings and Star Trek have walked hand in hand since TOS. If a person takes issue with it, fine, but let's not pretend Star Trek hasn't walked this path before or that it's any more or less a science-fantasy franchise than the likes of Star Wars.
Edit - and if you're going to invoke Clarke's third law, do it consistently. It could just as easily apply to any apparently magical object/being.
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that bottle contained a suspension of 47ppm of midichlorians, folks. and also a nasal-numbing agent.
Here's the thing for me. Yes, it can be silly, but it's a matter of the execution. TOS was very much willing to embrace fantasy elements, including gods and magic in some form. I guess Guinan and Q are just exceptions to the silly rule.
Now, in the spirit of fairness, I don't have the same level of sensitivity to silliness in Star Trek. I think Q is extremely silly, but I would certainly not think he is out of place in Star Trek. He's just a grating and irritating character whom I find no pleasure in. Does the magic bottle fall under that category?
I guess I just don't understand why a Q would need any kind of physical object to be summoned.
They're supposed to be omnipotent, aren't they? So if you want to talk to them, shouldn't they already know about it?
They're supposed to be omnipotent, aren't they? So if you want to talk to them, shouldn't they already know about it?
I guess I just don't understand why a Q would need any kind of physical object to be summoned.
They're supposed to be omnipotent, aren't they? So if you want to talk to them, shouldn't they already know about it?
Unless their deal with the Q is that they are not allowed to be spied on?
A deal with the Q...good luck enforcing THAT one.
I think the amount of stuff that's understood about the Q continuum, both in universe and out of universe, is next to zero anyway.
Q essentially operates as a magical being. To me it stands to reason he can be summoned by magical means.
The other route is technobabble. Neither is entirely satisfactory.
To me it doesn’t seem that crazy, or far fetched that Q could be summoned by a bottle. The Q aren’t too far off from many depictions of genies, why couldn’t they be tied to some object of signifcance to them? Seems thematically appropriate/consistent with the kind of life form the Q are, and many of their somewhat arcane rules and undefined abilities.
I do find the implications that Guinan having the bottle creates interesting. When looking at it alongside how Q reacts to Guinan, and the way she spoke about her father in Time’s Arrow, I think it’s quite probable that Guinan’s father, herself, and their family, could have had an important place of power in El-Aurian culture. Perhaps Guinan was entrusted to protect the bottle, either as an individual, or due to a familial legacy.
I do find the implications that Guinan having the bottle creates interesting. When looking at it alongside how Q reacts to Guinan, and the way she spoke about her father in Time’s Arrow, I think it’s quite probable that Guinan’s father, herself, and their family, could have had an important place of power in El-Aurian culture. Perhaps Guinan was entrusted to protect the bottle, either as an individual, or due to a familial legacy.
Narratively Q is a demon/genie/imp. He's a mischievous magical creature who delights in chaos and mayhem. He even snaps his fingers to use his powers.
Maybe a bottle doesn't make sense, but then that presupposes that Q makes sense. The problem goes deeper than the bottle.
Maybe a bottle doesn't make sense, but then that presupposes that Q makes sense. The problem goes deeper than the bottle.
We were talking about how with Dajh shutting down the signal the silly tech tentacle monsters she called just cut off their tentacles and said never mind, not the silly bottle. That was just badly executed, nothing more.
Seems you should rewatch that episode, as things were explained pretty clearly (what wasn’t explained was how Kirk and Spock knew gorgan’s name, but that’s a story for another time).
Also, and I’m quite tired of saying this, bad episodes of past Trek do not justify bad episodes of new Trek.