Jennifer Lien

[Oddish]

I like to think when he started snapping every one up their presents the dead kid got better and he just left her alive when he lost her powers.

Seems reasonable, like something he would do, and it's very possible that Riker just quietly restored everyone lost in the disaster to life. But the point is they didn't show him doing it. Because they couldn't show Riker actually doing anything "good" with his powers. Worf was embarrassed, Wes was denied ten years of his life. Even giving Geordi normal eyes was presented in the worst possible context.

 

[Orphalesion]

Weren't they returned back in time at the end of that episode to the exact point it started?

 

[Oddish]

They are returned to the moments following the "rescue mission". No information on how successful it was, but there was presumably nothing else that could be done at that point.

The point is, Q powers are treated with disdain by both the show and its cast. They can never accomplish anything good, aside from solving a problem that was effectively already solved, or something minor like giving Data a good laugh. In Q and the Gray, Janeway insists that "we'll get home through hard work and determination, without any quick fixes". Not sure the people who died in the ensuing 4-1/2 years would have agreed.

 

[Orphalesion]

Ah okay, it's been years and years since I saw that episode, since I don't like Q and all.

And I guess the Q are just too powerful to make them helpful. Because once you start having them solve problems you open up the question why they don't just solve every problem that opens up. Why don't they stop the Borg? Why didn't they stop the Hobus Supernova? Why didn't they stop the Dominon? Why don't they stop people from dying? Why don't they stop bad things from happening? And as I pointed out earlier Q/the Q just snipping their fingers to solve major problems is just unsatisfying storytelling.

Really it was a mistake to even have Q on Voyager and offer to send them home, because it leads to the exact BS you pointed out.

Then again, I'm also the guy who thinks that the Q were a mistake in general and who never found DeLancie all that entertaining.

 

[Oddish]

There's a hilarious meme out there, I wish I could post it, that sort of reflects this dilemma.

Q: "Sleep with me, Kathy, and I'll get Voyager home..."
JANEWAY: "No."
Q (to Kim, who's standing right behind her): "Harry? Same deal."
15 minutes later, Voyager is zooming past the Golden Gate bridge.

Regarding quick fixes by Q, in the relevant subject, there's precedent of sort in "The Autobiography of Jean Luc Picard". Before his death in Nemesis, Data was revealed to have downloaded his memories into B4, whose primitive positron brain can't properly process them. Q later shows up, declares that "I'm not doing this for you, Jean Luc, I'm doing it for him. I miss him." and Zap, B4 gets an upgrade and Data's back.

Something similar could have happened with Kes, had she been present in Q2, especially if she had been involved in the plot itself. Q or Junior might offhand remark that "yeah, I might have pushed back her morilogium by a few decades".

Even failing that, they could have (instead of doing Before and After) had the Ocampa lifespan genome be recessive. Kes passes on at nine years, but her half-human children will experience a normal life. That would be a nice bittersweet ending.

 

[at Quark's]

There's a hilarious meme out there, I wish I could post it, that sort of reflects this dilemma.

Q: "Sleep with me, Kathy, and I'll get Voyager home..."
JANEWAY: "No."
Q (to Kim, who's standing right behind her): "Harry? Same deal."
15 minutes later, Voyager is zooming past the Golden Gate bridge.

Never heard that one before.

Somehow, I have the feeling that Janeway is possibly so self-righteous that she wouldn't even be entirely happy with this solution. After all, if Voyager is to return home, it'd better be on her terms.

 

[XCV330]

I still think Fury-Kes would have made an excellent recurring villain.

Of course she still COULD have a roll like that on PIC or LD

 

[Orphalesion]

Something similar could have happened with Kes, had she been present in Q2, especially if she had been involved in the plot itself. Q or Junior might offhand remark that "yeah, I might have pushed back her morilogium by a few decades".

Even failing that, they could have (instead of doing Before and After) had the Ocampa lifespan genome be recessive. Kes passes on at nine years, but her half-human children will experience a normal life. That would be a nice bittersweet ending.

There was never any need for Q to extend Kes' lifespan. Remember the Ocampa who travelled with Suspiria and was like 13 or something and looked like he was 30? He said that was because under Suspiria he was free to develop his psychic abilities.
To me it sounded like they were deliberately setting that up for Kes, so they can still have her young in the final seasons (I doubt they ever seriously considered having Jennifer Lien in old age make-up for a whole season or more). Just have her develop her psychic abilities and unlock a way to extend her life-span through that.
Much more satisfying (since it's Kes' effort who earns her her reward) and based on something concrete in the character.

There's a hilarious meme out there, I wish I could post it, that sort of reflects this dilemma.

Q: "Sleep with me, Kathy, and I'll get Voyager home..."
JANEWAY: "No."
Q (to Kim, who's standing right behind her): "Harry? Same deal."
15 minutes later, Voyager is zooming past the Golden Gate bridge.

Ha! You know making him the first gay Star Trek character could have been one of the ways they could have developed Harry in that would have been pretty interesting.

 

[Oddish]

Somehow, I have the feeling that Janeway is possibly so self-righteous that she wouldn't even be entirely happy with this solution. After all, if Voyager is to return home, it'd better be on her terms.

True. But what's she gonna do? Refuse to promote him?

Ha! You know making him the first gay Star Trek character could have been one of the ways they could have developed Harry in that would have been pretty interesting.

Very true. I know Kate Mulgrew pushed hard for a gay character in Voyager's cast. But, back in the 90's, it would have been a tougher sell than today.

Just have her develop her psychic abilities and unlock a way to extend her life-span through that.

They could even have that be part of the Ocampa life cycle. They only died so young because their mental abilities were stunted.

 

[at Quark's]

True. But what's she gonna do? Refuse to promote him?

God, no. In combination with that other trope (making Kim gay) we'd get all those discussion posts about whether Janeway is discriminating gays because Kim didn't get promoted ...

 

[Oddish]

I think that if Kim had been gay, TPTB wouldn't have dared pull that puerile "let's punish the actor by abusing his character" crap with him for fear of pissing off the LGBT+ community.

 

[at Quark's]

I think that if Kim had been gay, TPTB wouldn't have dared pull that puerile "let's punish the actor by abusing his character" crap with him for fear of pissing off the LGBT+ community.

^Today, probably not, if you say so. But back in the nineties?
(I don't live in the US so it's really hard for me to judge that).

 

[Oddish]

Hard to say, but I think that if they were willing to risk a ratings hit to include a gay character, they wouldn't have wanted to turn around and humiliate them. It just seems counterproductive.

Of course, given the pure stupidity of keeping ANY character at ensign for 7 years, we can't assume that they would have figured this out.

 

[at Quark's]

Hard to say, but I think that if they were willing to risk a ratings hit to include a gay character, they wouldn't have wanted to turn around and humiliate them. It just seems counterproductive.

Of course, given the pure stupidity of keeping ANY character at ensign for 7 years, we can't assume that they would have figured this out.

Also given episodes like Fury which they must certainly have known wouldn't land too well with many people who liked Kes (including myself) ... and they still did so. To me that always felt like a 'we can do whatever we feel like and the viewers can either eat it up or leave!' attitude.

 

[Orphalesion]

Very true. I know Kate Mulgrew pushed hard for a gay character in Voyager's cast. But, back in the 90's, it would have been a tougher sell than today.

As I always say when this comes up; the Golden Girls had gay recurring characters in the 1980s. I think it had more to do with Berman (or was it Braga?) that 90s Trek didn't have any gay characters.

They could even have that be part of the Ocampa life cycle. They only died so young because their mental abilities were stunted.

To me that was honestly the implication, or that their powers, failing to be properly controlled by the Ocampas "burned" through their bodies quickly. Especially since the episode with Suspiria showed that the Ocampa can ontroll biological processes.

I think that if Kim had been gay, TPTB wouldn't have dared pull that puerile "let's punish the actor by abusing his character" crap with him for fear of pissing off the LGBT+ community.

I would like to think that. But wouldn't the same have been true about the first East-Asian Trek main character since Sulu? And yet look how they treated him, they even wrote negative stereotypes about East-Asian men into him.
The only thing that him being the first gay character in Trek would have changed is that he would have been publicised more and maybe that would have motivated the writers to do more with him. Maybe.

 

[Oddish]

think it had more to do with Berman (or was it Braga?) that 90s Trek didn't have any gay characters.

Possibly. Berman is the one Mulgrew reported approached regarding the subject.

would like to think that. But wouldn't the same have been true about the first East-Asian Trek main character since Sulu? And yet look how they treated him, they even wrote negative stereotypes about East-Asian men into him.

If Kim had had any lasting negative attributes, he might have been an interesting character. Instead, he was basically the first 11 points of the Scout Law (and would have been reverent too, were this not a secular show) all rolled into one. If he'd been a Boy Scout, he'd probably have made Eagle by the time he was 14.

The only thing that him being the first gay character in Trek would have changed is that he would have been publicised more and maybe that would have motivated the writers to do more with him. Maybe.

Indeed. Remember, these were people who either couldn't even count to 38, or thought that we couldn't.

 

[fireproof78]

I like to think when he started snapping every one up their presents the dead kid got better and he just left her alive when he lost her powers.

That doesn't change Picard's attitude. Honestly it's rather odd, from a humanitarian perspective.

 

[Orphalesion]

That doesn't change Picard's attitude. Honestly it's rather odd, from a humanitarian perspective.

The characters seem to regard Q giving Riker powers as some sort of "deal with the devil" situation, which really doesn't match the events of the episode all that much, imo.
Q's even vanquished at the end with a stereotypical "nooooo!" which is really all sorts of odd with how the character was handled in the rest of the show.

 

[unimatrix7]

Even failing that, they could have (instead of doing Before and After) had the Ocampa lifespan genome be recessive. Kes passes on at nine years, but her half-human children will experience a normal life. That would be a nice bittersweet ending.

Thanks for reminding me to rewatch DS9's 'The Quickening.' Adore that episode but haven't seen it in years. I have a cold so I know that'll make some cosy bedtime viewing

 

[Farscape One]

"THE QUICKENING" is an excellent episode. It's what I use as the reason why Bashir is my favorite doctor in the franchise.