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Real spacecraft in Picard "Fly Me to the Moon"

trekkist

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
I did a lot of freeze-framing on this one, trying to make out as much as I could. In addition to various models, we see:

1)a poster of an Apollo Command/Service/Lunar module assembly, above a side view of a space shuttle (which seems too small, thus out of scale)

2)A floor-to-ceiling Saturn V poster, inexplicably titled "Flight 1961-2024." Interestingly, a single angle reveals a smaller rocket (likewise sporting a spiffy black and white paint job), seemingly in scale with the Saturn V, atop which is...Elon Musk's SpaceX Crew Dragon capsule.

Per canon, TOS's 1968 Earth featured two distinct Saturn V launch facilities (by which I don't mean pads; the entire complex, Vehicle Assembly Building included). How do we know "McKinley Rocket Base" isn't Kennedy Space Center by another name? From TOS's first trip to the late 1960s:

MAN [OC]: This is the five thirty news summary. Cape Kennedy. The first manned Moon shot is scheduled for Wednesday, six am Eastern Standard Time. All three astronauts who are to make this historic
(Kirk signals it cut off)

In reality, JFK's murder was commemorated in two ways. NASA's Apollo facility became "Kennedy Space Center," and Cape Canaveral became Cape Kennedy (until 1973, when it reverted to its prior name). The Cape being the lesser of the two (not in size, but significance), it makes no sense that in TOS it would bear JFK's name, but the launch center have McKinley's.

Thus, by 1968, a nuclear bomb satellite was being lofted from what was presumably an Air Force Saturn V site named (for some unknown reason) "McKinley Rocket Base" (which I've located, by the way, with a fair-to-middling match to the map seen in "Assignment: Earth").

Personally, I've no doubt the Picard tech advisory staff knows this. They can't come out and say it literally, of course, for fear of management and/or fandom ("MY Star Trek's in MY future! NO RETCONS!")...but as usual, Picard's trip to the (now) near future has THAT time VERY different from what will come in 2 years (or indeed 20, I imagine): a piloted mission to Europa.

So what, you ask? Just this: "Flight 1961-2024" makes a sort of sense (in reality, 1961 lacked authorization of Apollo or finalization of the Saturn V design--so WTF?), IF Picard's (a.k.a. the "deep canonical") 2024 is/will be the year of the Saturn V's retirement.
 
There had been plans to continue modernizing and improving the Saturn line. There was a possibility of reusable first stages by Chrysler, and the NERVA nuclear upperstage that would have made trips to Mars and beyond doable. Losing NERVA was particularly bad. About the same time the UK stopped Black Arrow after a single flight and gave up entirely on spaceflight. So it could have been worse.

It only took an act of will, which in our universe was lacking.
 
There are better shots of the Manned Space Flight 1961-2024 display. It is heavily Americentric with there being one reference to Yuri Gagarin and no mention of any other contribution by the Soviet Union/Russia or China.

It covers the 1961 launch of Alan Shepard, the 1968 Apollo 8 mission, the 1969 Apollo 11 mission, the space shuttle orbiters, and the SpaceX Dragon 2 mission to the ISS in 2020.

We have displays on the Mercury Project, the Apollo Program and its lunar rovers, the Nomad probe, the OV-165, and Shango. There are no displays on any other NASA project.

What is missing from canon Trek is anything about the DY ships, the Earth-to-Saturn mission, or the Aries missions.

trekkist, the rocket you are referring to is the Falcon 9.
 
Is anyone else impressed by the Mercury Capsule lookalike?

I wonder if they built it from scratch or if it's a generic prop that you can rent for TV/movie productions.

pic-206-preview-01-640x427.jpg


17832_1557236199.jpg
 
What is missing from canon Trek is anything about the DY ships, the Earth-to-Saturn mission, or the Aries missions.
Maybe early DY series ships are getting retconned here as part of black programs. I don't think the launch of the SS Botany Bay was common knowledge. The Saturn mission may have been a classified DY flight (I can see needing a sleeper ship for that).
 
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>There had been plans to continue modernizing and improving the Saturn line.

My personal favorite remains the S-ID, which borrowed from the Atlas ICBM its "one and a half stage" principle, jettisoning its outermost four F-1 engines in a potentially-recoverable skirt:

http://lostinthisspace.blogspot.com/2013/01/s-1d-first-stage.html

Incidentally, a few of my go-to sources on real space (supplanting, that is, my 15-odd shelf feet of books*) are Mark Wade's Encyclopedia Astronautica, David S.F. Portree's sites, one whose ownership I don't know, and of course that of Scott Lowther, who although..."interesting" politically, is a veritable infinite font of source documents:

http://www.astronautix.com/
http://spaceflighthistory.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/dsfpspacefl1ght
https://humanoidhistory.tumblr.com/
https://up-ship.com/blog/

Lowther also sells what one might call fanzines:

https://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/

* "I've got my own system. Books, young man, books. Thousands of them. If time wasn't so important, I'd show you something. My library. Thousands of books."

>What is missing from canon Trek is anything about the DY ships, the Earth-to-Saturn mission, or the Aries missions.

Strictly speaking, those are all a part of "canon Trek," with former 2 taking precedence via their air dates. Can't revisit any of 'em on screen, of course, since their very existences prove ST's is an alternate universe (can't have that). (thus that stupid DY-atop-shuttle solids on steroids images and models in DS9--recognizable "Easter eggs" at a glance, but utterly impossible to build or fly...and of course, the DY wasn't a U.S. project at all, the Khan novels' foolishness notwithstanding)

>trekkist, the rocket you are referring to is the Falcon 9.

I wasn't going to claim that without doing length and diameter measurements; I recognized the Dragon, but given the show's art folks couldn't bother to depict Apollo & a shuttle orbiter to scale, didn't want to go out on a limb and claim "Falcon 9 alongside Saturn V."

>There are better shots of the Manned Space Flight 1961-2024 display.

Link, please?

>It is heavily Americentric with there being one reference to Yuri Gagarin and no mention of any other contribution by the Soviet Union/Russia or China.

How pathetic. So for all the dissing of Discovery/Picard as "offensively 'woke,'" the background imagery folks are bellicosely nationalistic! (I wonder if they know that? or what they'd say if accused of being so?)

So by canon ("Manned Space Flight 1961-2024"), non-American space travelers weren't [real] men...just stinkin' commies!!! (one could draw many a conclusion about the greatness of ST's 2024 America...per DS9, that of the 50 ghetto---ah, Sanctuaries at the heart of U.S. cities....) (is discussion of "politics" forbidden here?) (serious question; I really do not know)

Enterprise's titles did Soviet spaceflight the same disservice too (I wish I'd the skills to "remaster" them). Trek's first on-air depiction of a Soviet spacecraft with a seconds-long view of Sputnik 1 at the start of "Carbon Creek," aired Sept 25, 2002--coincidentally 6 years to the day prior China's 3rd manned spaceflight, that of a 3-man Shenzhou, and the same date as various 'foreign" achievements, per Wade:

1949 September 25 - . 11:16 GMT - . Launch Site: Kapustin Yar. Launch Complex: Kapustin Yar V-2. LV Family: V-2. Launch Vehicle: R-2e.
Nation: Russia. Agency: Korolev bureau. Apogee: 100 km (60 mi). Modification of R-1 missile to test R-2 concepts (integral fuel tank and seperable warhead). Range achieved 541.3 km. Deviation from aim point -0.2 km. Launched at 1416 local time..

1951 September 25 - . Launch Vehicle: Eole.
  • Eole successful engine test - . Nation: France. Related Persons: Barre. The liquid oxygen/alcohol engine produces 9.59 tonnes thrust and an exhaust velocity of 2110 m/s..
On 17 May 1946 the French DEFA Agency established the LRBA (Ballistics and Aeronautical Research Laboratory). Jean-Jacques Barre was authorized to develop an improved version of his EA 1941 wartime indigenous rocket design on 15 October, 1946. This development was in competition with the Veronique, being developed for LRBA by a German team. Barre's EA 1946, powered by a liquid oxygen/gasoline engine with a 100 kN thrust, was intended to be a credible army weapon. Static tests began in February 1949 in Vernon, but it took three years and a switch to ethanol fuel to obtain stable combustion. Two flight tests in 1952 ended in failure. After six years the German design teams had produced better results, and the French military decided storable propellant engines offered more promise. The project was cancelled.

1962 September 25 - . Launch Vehicle: N1.
  • N1 launch vehicle upgraded to accomodate OS-1 75 tonne manned platform with nuclear weapons. - . Nation: Russia. Related Persons: Khrushchev, Korolev. Class: Earth. Type: Weather satellite. Spacecraft Bus: OS. Spacecraft: OS-1 (1965).

    Work on the OS-1 began following a meeting between Khrushchev and chief designers at Pitsunda. Korolev was authorized to proceed immediately to upgrade the three stage N vehicle to a maximum 75 tonne payload in order to launch the station. By 1965 the mockup of the huge station had been completed.
1964 September 25 - . Launch Site: Baikonur. Launch Complex: Baikonur LC60/8. LV Family: R-16. Launch Vehicle: R-16U.
  • UBP Kedr operational test launch - . Nation: Russia. Agency: RVSN. Apogee: 1,210 km (750 mi). Demonstration launch witnessed by Khrushchev..
1964 September 25 - . 04:03 GMT - . Launch Site: Baikonur. Launch Complex: Baikonur LC67/22. LV Family: R-36. Launch Vehicle: R-36 8K67.
  • State trials missile test - . Nation: Russia. Agency: RVSN. Apogee: 1,000 km (600 mi). Demonstration launch witnessed by Khrushchev..
1970 September 25 - .
  • Cosmonaut flight training. - . Nation: Russia. Related Persons: Nikolayev, Tereshkova.

    More controversy over Mishin and Gorshkov's new sea recovery plan for the L3. The Seregin Flight Regiment of the cosmonaut training centre flew 4002 hours in the first nine months of 1970, of which 900 were at night and 1307 were in poor weather. The cosmonauts themselves flew 1987 hours.
1970 September 25 - . LV Family: N1.
  • Mars expedition is off, but the MKBS is still under consideration - . Related Persons: Mishin. Spacecraft: , MKBS. Definite news that the Mars expedition is off, but the MKBS ('the big girdle') is still under consideration by the military industrial commission. The N1-launched Luch communications satellite is to come in 1973 (Mishin Diaries 2-287).
1970 September 25 - . Launch Site: Kagoshima. Launch Complex: Kagoshima M. LV Family: Mu. Launch Vehicle: Mu-4S. FAILURE: Fourth stage failed to ignite.. Failed Stage: 4.
  • SS - . Payload: MS-F1. Nation: Japan. Agency: ISAS. Class: Earth. Type: Magnetosphere satellite. Spacecraft: SS. Decay Date: 1970-09-25 . Apogee: 712 km (442 mi).
1973 September 25 - .
  • Skylab 3 - Wakeup Song: Going Back to Houston - . Flight: Skylab 3. "Going Back to Houston" (probably "Houston" by Dean Martin) CAPCOM: Henry Hartsfield Skylab 4.
(added for inclusivity)

Incidentally, in re: the first cat in space:

Félicette (French pronunciation: [fe.liː.sɛt]) was a stray Parisian cat who was the only cat successfully launched into space. She was launched on 18 October 1963 as part of the French space program. Félicette was one of 14 female cats trained for spaceflight. The cats had electrodes implanted onto their skulls so their neurological activity could be monitored throughout the flight. Electrical impulses were applied to the brain and a leg during the flight to stimulate responses. The capsule was recovered 13 minutes after the rocket was ignited. Most of the data from the mission were of good quality, and Félicette survived the flight but was purposely killed two months later for scientific research. A second feline was killed in a launch mishap on 24 October 1963.

Félicette had the designation of C 341 before the flight, and after the flight the media gave her the name Félix, after Félix the Cat. Centre d'Enseignement et de Recherches de Médecine Aéronautique (CERMA) modified this to the feminine Félicette and adopted it as her official name. She has been commemorated on postage stamps around the world and a statue with her likeness is on display at the International Space University. France's feline biological rocket payloads were preceded by rats and followed by monkeys.

See her also at:

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and

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/felicette-first-cat-space-finally-gets-memorial-180974062/
 
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Thank you! (I'd open a beer...but I went diabetic since I bought the six pack of which but one or two remain...)
 
Thanks! "Noted & logged."
OK...I've joined and posted Instagram:

Highest compliments on inclusion of the Venturestar-like shuttle from "Enterprise" and Elon's Falcon 9 and Dragon. I'm curious, though, as to why no Soviet/Russian (or for that matter Chinese) "manned" (sic) spaceflight examples were shown. Does this omission reflect a deliberate production decision to depict/imply a hyper-nationalistic 2024 America? Or was it out of respect for Putin's savagery both before Ukraine and now?
 
There had been plans to continue modernizing and improving the Saturn line. There was a possibility of reusable first stages by Chrysler, and the NERVA nuclear upperstage that would have made trips to Mars and beyond doable. Losing NERVA was particularly bad. About the same time the UK stopped Black Arrow after a single flight and gave up entirely on spaceflight. So it could have been worse.

It only took an act of will, which in our universe was lacking.
Hazegray did a Saturn based COMET HLLV recently.

The Shango X-1 is interesting
 
Curious non-answer from Liz Kloczkowski ("Clock-cow-ski," BTW), Picard's Art Director (see my question posted at https://www.instagram.com/p/CcHb9umOMJ-/?igshid=YTgzYjQ4ZTY= above):

lklocz
@trekkistone this shot in early 2021. It’s an exhibition of the entire history of space flight, including the space race.

I answered...or tried to: "Don't you mean the entire history of American spaceflight?" (this post didn't appear; maybe I hit "edit" my mistake? I'll give it a day or so and try again; I don't mean to come off as rude)
 
>shipfisher said:
Maybe early DY series ships are getting retconned here as part of black programs. I don't think the launch of the SS Botany Bay was common knowledge. The Saturn mission may have been a classified DY flight (I can see needing a sleeper ship for that).

There's definite retconning in re: the model and images of the Nomad probe, which resemble the TOS image and TNG model only enough to be recognizable. Who knows what the Picard DY is or was or will be; per canon, the DY-100 was not known to be a sleeper ship (or Kirk and/or Spock would have known it as such on seeing it on screen), and predated ("far older," I think Spock said) the DY-500 class. Literally per canon, both classes, any classes built between and possibly those after would not be US spacecraft:

SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.

...unless of course one buys into Greg Cox's version of the Eugenics Wars, in which Gary Seven helped Khan steal the Botony Bay, and 36 million due such fun events as:

SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

...none of which made any impression on America, I guess (a statement based on only 2nd hand knowledge of Cox's take, BTW; I read his 1st effort, "Assignment: Eternity", and...what's that line? Oh yeah:

"This book does not deserve to be set aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force."

(cited from memory; apparently both attribution and exact phrasing remain in question:

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/26/great-force/
 
Well...we saw a ludicrous model of the DY-100 being launched when they came back to visit 1996...recognizable at a glance but impossible (no aerodynamic shroud, an off-center half-ring of 5 cargo pie-slices on a design whose designer said could mount up to 16 "panniers" (and if ground-launched would have to have 'em all). Am I forgetting some other reference?
 
Well...we saw a ludicrous model of the DY-100 being launched when they came back to visit 1996...recognizable at a glance but impossible (no aerodynamic shroud, an off-center half-ring of 5 cargo pie-slices on a design whose designer said could mount up to 16 "panniers" (and if ground-launched would have to have 'em all). Am I forgetting some other reference?
More how normal LA looked given a war with whole populations wiped out.
 
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