1701-E - Has the romance between Picard and the Enterprise died?

[DGCatAniSiri]

Kirk was really the only (hero character) captain who had that ultra strong bond with his ship. Not that the others didn't care, because many times we see that they obviously do.. It was just focused on more with Kirk and more of an intregal part of his personality.

Janeway and Voyager were a lot like this, as well...

One of the more relatable attributes I found with Janeway was her tendency to talk to the technology around her (not just giving verbal commands). Though I have to say, I find it hard to believe that she used so few expletives when speaking with it...

 

[Sci]

When I was watching First Contact the other day, I didn't get the sense that Picard was being dissmissive of or uncaring about the ship. While I agree that his primary motivation was his hatred for the Borg, I also got the sense that Picard had a great deal of affection for the Enterprise-E. In particular, the way he stuck around on the bridge for a moment after Worf and Beverly had left, seemingly to say goodbye, struck me.

 

[Christopher]

When I was watching First Contact the other day, I didn't get the sense that Picard was being dissmissive of or uncaring about the ship. While I agree that his primary motivation was his hatred for the Borg, I also got the sense that Picard had a great deal of affection for the Enterprise-E. In particular, the way he stuck around on the bridge for a moment after Worf and Beverly had left, seemingly to say goodbye, struck me.

But the point is, he didn't have the same kind of deep devotion to the ship that Kirk had. He wasn't in love with the Enterprise, they were just good friends.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But that wasn't about his love for the ship, it was about his hatred for the Borg, his refusal to give any more ground to them.

The ground in question is the ship. It is fruitless to split hairs on his mental processes, but I think it's sufficient to suggest the ship is not disposable to him in his obvious desire to harm the Borg (a little more than just a "tool" as another poster suggested).

Oh, come on, his mental processes are the whole point of this discussion. We're not talking about his actions, we're talking about the emotion that motivates those actions. I'll concede that he cared about the ship, since what drove him was his refusal to give up anything more he cared about to the Borg. But it's blatant that what was primarily motivating him at that point was obsession, rage, and hatred toward the Borg, not romantic infatuation with a starship.

Remember, when Lily convinced him to change his mind, the argument wasn't about his feelings for the ship, it was about his obsessive hatred of the Borg. Once she made him recognize that he was basing his decisions on vindictiveness and hate, he was able to switch gears and sacrifice the ship quite readily. Indeed, his valedictory words about the Enterprise-E were almost dismissive. "There are plenty of letters left in the alphabet" is hardly a profession of love for the ship. If anything, it suggests he considers the ship merely an interchangeable part.

Um it was mentioned in this movie that Picard had the E for only a little over a year, so it would probably take more time to form an attachment to it.

 

[trekkerguy]

I never got the impression Picard wasn't
"In Love" with his ship. The E or D.

He simply didn't show it the way Kirk did.
Picard is more reserved and professional.

I think he loves his 1701's just as much.

 

[William Leisner]

Y'know, every time I see this thread pop up, I imagine Picard and the E singing some sappy breakup song to each other -- usually "You Don't Bring Me Flowers Anymore."

 

[Rosalind]

Y'know, every time I see this thread pop up, I imagine Picard and the E singing some sappy breakup song to each other -- usually "You Don't Bring Me Flowers Anymore."

thanks. Now I've got this song stuck in my head.

 

[Marcus Porcius Cato]

I always had a sense that there was a strong relationship between the captains of the Enterprises and their ships. With Kirk, it almost seemed to be romantic at times. Certainly, the musical theme for the Enterprise (e.g., in ST:TMP) was practically a love theme at times.

Picard also seemed to have a similar love for the Enterprise-D at times, although his feelings for the ship didn't seem to be quite what Kirk's had been. Contrast Picard's reaction to losing the Ent-D to Kirk's reaction to losing the Ent at the Genesis planet. Picard even said something to the extent that he cared more for the Stargazer than the Ent-D when he was talking to Scotty in 'Relics'.

My feeling throughout the movies and novels set post-Generations is that Picard doesn't look at the Enterprise-E quite the same way as he used to look at her predecessor. To me, it seems like an essential relationship - that of the Captain and his Ship - has either disappeared or never evolved with the Enterprise-E. I rather miss the moments where the Captain would give a gentle squeeze to the armrest of his chair during a battle and 'think' to the ship, "Come on, hang in there for one more minute." Sure, it was maybe more of a Kirk thing, but I've seen it there with Picard too.

Maybe I'm being too sentimental, but I've always felt that the Captain should be married to his ship to some degree - that the relationship used to be something more than just a man and a vehicle. I think that's one of the things missing from the stories of the Enterprise-E: I don't see anyone in love with her.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Is it just me?

Where does this marriage stop... is it worth life of his family, his crewman?

 

[MMCL]

For Picard - losing the Stargazer, being reprimanded for her loss, finding out she wasn't lost, then being mindwarped to battle the Enterprise again by the enemy you thought had destroyed her - might have made him a little more reserved when dealing with his future ships.

 

[mastadge]

I think part of it too is just the different timeframes. Like, in Kirk's day the fleet was a lot smaller and the ship was a lot smaller and more analog. Like, Picard captaining the flagship of a huge fleet is an honor, but Kirk getting one of, what, somewhere between a half-dozen and a dozen heavy cruisers in the entire fleet is a different situation. I think one of the things that the Kelvin, Enterprise and Discovery stuff has inadvertently retconned with the sheer number and variety of ships on screen was how much smaller the fleet felt in TOS and how much more alone out there they were in TOS. They talked about it in ENT but I only felt it in TOS.

 

[Christopher]

I think part of it too is just the different timeframes. Like, in Kirk's day the fleet was a lot smaller and the ship was a lot smaller and more analog. Like, Picard captaining the flagship of a huge fleet is an honor, but Kirk getting one of, what, somewhere between a half-dozen and a dozen heavy cruisers in the entire fleet is a different situation. I think one of the things that the Kelvin, Enterprise and Discovery stuff has inadvertently retconned with the sheer number and variety of ships on screen was how much smaller the fleet felt in TOS and how much more alone out there they were in TOS. They talked about it in ENT but I only felt it in TOS.

I dunno, I don't think the fleet in TOS was supposed to be small -- it's just that the Constitution class was the biggest, most advanced and elite class out of them all, so there were fewer of them than there were of other classes, like aircraft carriers in the Navy. Also that they were way out on the edge of the frontier, far from home, and thus rarely ran into other Starfleet ships except others of the same class that were also probing the frontier.

And TNG's idea of one ship being the "flagship" of the whole fleet never made any sense. That's not what flagships are in naval usage. A flagship is the ship on which an admiral or the head of a multi-ship task force is based, where they plant their flag. The only time the Enterprise really functioned as a flagship was in "Redemption" when it headed up a squadron of ships under Picard's overall command.

 

[publiusr]

Well, he sure wasn't willing to let the Borg have it in ST: First Contact.

He had just lost one—damn if he lost another

 

[Elias Vaughn]

And TNG's idea of one ship being the "flagship" of the whole fleet never made any sense. That's not what flagships are in naval usage. A flagship is the ship on which an admiral or the head of a multi-ship task force is based, where they plant their flag. The only time the Enterprise really functioned as a flagship was in "Redemption" when it headed up a squadron of ships under Picard's overall command.

Maybe that usage of flagship came from the Andorians or some mother member species. Or the meanming of the word just shifted over 300ish years.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe that usage of flagship came from the Andorians or some mother member species. Or the meanming of the word just shifted over 300ish years.

It's already a common civilian usage, which must be what TNG's makers were thinking of. But I object to the elitism of the notion that one Starfleet ship and crew are considered better or more important than all the rest.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I always had a sense that there was a strong relationship between the captains of the Enterprises and their ships. With Kirk, it almost seemed to be romantic at times. Certainly, the musical theme for the Enterprise (e.g., in ST:TMP) was practically a love theme at times.

Picard also seemed to have a similar love for the Enterprise-D at times, although his feelings for the ship didn't seem to be quite what Kirk's had been. Contrast Picard's reaction to losing the Ent-D to Kirk's reaction to losing the Ent at the Genesis planet. Picard even said something to the extent that he cared more for the Stargazer than the Ent-D when he was talking to Scotty in 'Relics'.

My feeling throughout the movies and novels set post-Generations is that Picard doesn't look at the Enterprise-E quite the same way as he used to look at her predecessor. To me, it seems like an essential relationship - that of the Captain and his Ship - has either disappeared or never evolved with the Enterprise-E. I rather miss the moments where the Captain would give a gentle squeeze to the armrest of his chair during a battle and 'think' to the ship, "Come on, hang in there for one more minute." Sure, it was maybe more of a Kirk thing, but I've seen it there with Picard too.

Maybe I'm being too sentimental, but I've always felt that the Captain should be married to his ship to some degree - that the relationship used to be something more than just a man and a vehicle. I think that's one of the things missing from the stories of the Enterprise-E: I don't see anyone in love with her.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Is it just me?

The problem began in STIII when writers decided it would be a good idea to destroy/wreck the Enterprise on every outing for 'dramatic effect.'

 

[mastadge]

The problem began in STIII when writers decided it would be a good idea to destroy/wreck the Enterprise on every outing for 'dramatic effect.'

??? It wasn't destroyed in 4, 5, or 6. It was only destroyed in 7 for the same reason it was retrofitted in TMP: to upgrade the made-for-TV model with a widescreen-spectacular model.

 

[Starbreaker]

I think Picard's love for the Stargazer over the Enterprise was hammered home again in this season of Picard.

 

[mastadge]

I think Picard's love for the Stargazer over the Enterprise was hammered home again in this season of Picard.

It makes sense in a season that's so backward-looking to focus on his prior command, but it also feels a whole lot like not wanting to commit to a new Enterprise design (or commit to it still being the E).

 

[Christopher]

It makes sense in a season that's so backward-looking to focus on his prior command, but it also feels a whole lot like not wanting to commit to a new Enterprise design (or commit to it still being the E).

Why would that be an issue? I don't see any reason they couldn't give us a new Enterprise if they wanted to; heck, Discovery established a far-future Voyager as a throwaway story beat. And they clearly have no reluctance to introduce new ship designs.

It's just that this show is called Picard, and I think they want to take a fuller look at Picard's life, including the parts that weren't about the Enterprise. Heck, he commanded the Stargazer longer than he commanded both Enterprises combined, though we tend to forget that. I like it that the show didn't forget that.