Starfleet Civil War

[Bry_Sinclair]

I know there have been several instances of a civil war occurring within the Federation at various points in the novels and such (most seem to end up with Vulcan leaving for some reason), but what if there was a civil war that was a little more insidious, fought between Section 31 and an element of Starfleet/UFP dedicated to bringing it down?

S31 is meant to be a super secret group that most within the Federation and Starfleet doesn't even know exists, so we have no idea of the number of agents, operatives or informants they have on the books, but they do look to have the fingers in pretty much every pie across Federation space. In the DS9 Relaunch books, Elias Vaughn is part of a "cabal" dedicated to taking them down, again we have no way of knowing how large this group is. So what if both sides ended up facing off against one another, a conflict that spilled out into a full on civil war within the fleet, one that would ultimately bring an end to S31 once and for all.

 

[Sci]

I think you mean Federation Civil War. Starfleet can't have a civil war; it's a military agency of a sovereign state, not a sovereign state in its own right. You can no more have a Starfleet Civil War than you can have a Royal Navy Civil War or a United States Air Force Civil War.

I know there have been several instances of a civil war occurring within the Federation at various points in the novels and such (most seem to end up with Vulcan leaving for some reason),

Well, no. The 1987 novel Spock's World features Vulcan considering seceding but deciding not to. The 2013 series Typhon Pact featured Andor seceding from the Federation as a result of a combination of a reactionary xenophobic political party and a campaign to manipulate public opinion by the Tholians, but Andor rejoined a few years later. I'm not aware of any novels featuring a Federation Civil War.

but what if there was a civil war that was a little more insidious, fought between Section 31 and an element of Starfleet/UFP dedicated to bringing it down?

S31 is meant to be a super secret group that most within the Federation and Starfleet doesn't even know exists, so we have no idea of the number of agents, operatives or informants they have on the books, but they do look to have the fingers in pretty much every pie across Federation space. In the DS9 Relaunch books, Elias Vaughn is part of a "cabal" dedicated to taking them down, again we have no way of knowing how large this group is. So what if both sides ended up facing off against one another, a conflict that spilled out into a full on civil war within the fleet, one that would ultimately bring an end to S31 once and for all.

That would be fun. You might also enjoy the novel Section 31: Control by David Mack.

 

[XCV330]

I would really hope they would not do that. We've seen enough of the dark side of the UFP, it would be good to continue to show it as a body that can reign in its darker impulses and continue to work for the good of the galaxy.

 

[Sci]

I would really hope they would not do that. We've seen enough of the dark side of the UFP, it would be good to continue to show it as a body that can reign in its darker impulses and continue to work for the good of the galaxy.

That's fair, but I don't think a conflict between Starfleet-loyal vessels and Section 31-loyal vessels would actually be a civil war. So I don't really think that plotline would violate the principle you're talking about here.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I don't think returning seceding member planets to the UFP fold by force of arms is really the Federation's thing normally (the Maquis being one sort-of exception with mitigating circumstances). They're more let them leave peaceably while we glower at them passive-aggressively from the other side of the quadrant and speechify about gazelles or some shit until they realize the error of their ways and come back to Mama Fed for a hug from those big loving arms of freedom, security, and prosperity. Even traditional sticks in the mud like the Vulcans can't stay away from that UFP TLC for too long. It's insidious.

Fighting an internal intelligence apparatus that's gone rogue like Section 31 is not a civil war.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't think returning seceding member planets to the UFP fold by force of arms is really the Federation's thing.

Yeah, I'm sure there's some sort of legal framework in place for a world that wants to leave.

That said, I love the bit in the novelverse - at least I think that's where they said this - where the Caitians are depicted as constantly seceding from and rejoining the Federation. Like cats sliding out of a cat door and back in.

It's insidious.

I don't see it that way...there is something to be said for the concept of strength in numbers.

Asking why a world might want to leave the Federation is a completely different thing from actually preventing them from doing so. If a world wants to leave, isn't the Federation entitled to know why? But if that world insists, they can do it. No evidence they can't.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I would really hope they would not do that. We've seen enough of the dark side of the UFP, it would be good to continue to show it as a body that can reign in its darker impulses and continue to work for the good of the galaxy.

I was thinking that following this conflict S31 was no more, so the whole idea of the dark underbelly of the UFP could be dropped and they could start to repair the damage that was done by the rogue organisation. S31 is one of the few things to come out of DS9 that I loath, unfortunately because its had other series latch onto it, so it's not going away quietly.

 

[Oddish]

If the Federation was a human body, Section 31 would be its anus.

It's dirty and nasty, best kept out of sight, and no one wants to talk about it... but it serves an essential purpose.

As long as the Federation exists, there will be a Section 31, or an organization of a different name that does the same thing.

 

[UssGlenn]

Starfleet can't have a civil war; it's a military agency of a sovereign state, not a sovereign state in its own right. You can no more have a Starfleet Civil War than you can have a Royal Navy Civil War or a United States Air Force Civil War.

Well, if the CnC of Starfleet sent out a controversial fleetwide order, and half of the Captains (and the Admiralty) refused to comply, and the other half did, I'm not sure what other term we could use that would be as descriptive.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It's insidious.

I don't see it that way...there is something to be said for the concept of strength in numbers.

It's a joke. I was quoting Garak in his conversation with Quark about Root Beer and the Federation.

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[BillJ]

I've seen enough of the dark side of the Federation to last a lifetime. I'd rather get back to exploring and leave internal squabbling to other shows that do it much better than Star Trek.

 

[Deks]

I've seen enough of the dark side of the Federation to last a lifetime. I'd rather get back to exploring and leave internal squabbling to other shows that do it much better than Star Trek.

Exactly.
I personally never cared for S31.
It was an unnecessary element that the UFP quite frankly probably never needed.
They have Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet... and on the whole, the UFP was able to uphold its principles and ideals DESPITE S31.
It was one of the reasons I never quite liked Ds9 as a whole.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I feel like Next Gen introduced bad admirals first, DS9 just gave them leather costumes, and a secret club with a cool name. Then it branded them villains and defeated them.

 

[Sci]

If the Federation was a human body, Section 31 would be its anus.

It's dirty and nasty, best kept out of sight, and no one wants to talk about it... but it serves an essential purpose.

Not really. We've literally never seen Section 31 undertake a single operation that didn't result in blowback that was significantly worse than the problem they had in the first place.

As long as the Federation exists, there will be a Section 31, or an organization of a different name that does the same thing.

The Federation does not need a criminal conspiracy that puts itself above the law and is accountable to no one.

Well, if the CnC of Starfleet sent out a controversial fleetwide order, and half of the Captains (and the Admiralty) refused to comply, and the other half did, I'm not sure what other term we could use that would be as descriptive.

The word would be mutiny, uprising, or insurrection.

 

[XCV330]

The closest Sec31 came to being useful was in Demons/Terra Prime


Edit: uh apart from winning the Dominion War

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The closest Sec31 came to being useful was in Demons/Terra Prime

And Affliction/Divergence.

Edit: uh apart from winning the Dominion War

That was Odo's doing, when he willingly cured the female shapeshifter.

 

[XCV330]

And Affliction/Divergence.


That was Odo's doing, when he willingly cured the female shapeshifter.

The bio weapon did work, though.

 

[Jayson1]

If Starfleet war went to war with each other both would be commenting mutiny because nearly would have gotten approval from the Federation. Which in turn be something that could literally destroy the Federation because it's entire military will have gone rouge on them. They would have to create a new military on the fly just to protect themselves from both Starfleet factions which would be next to impossible. Unless we are talking about military style holograms.

 

[Sci]

And Affliction/Divergence.

"Affliction/Divergence" directly led to widespread Klingon antagonism against Earth because of the Augment virus.

The bio weapon did work, though.

The bio-weapon did not win the war. The Dominion War was won via conventional military means. What it did do was convince the Female Shapeshifter to order the remaining Dominion forces to give the Allies a Pyrrhic victory by making them fight for every inch of Cardassia instead of just surrendering, out of spite for the extinction of her race.

Again: We have never seen a Section 31 operation that did not result in far greater blowback than the problem it had initially tried to solve.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"Affliction/Divergence" directly led to widespread Klingon antagonism against Earth because of the Augment virus.

Better than the deaths that would have resulted, had that virus gone unchecked.