Kira, Worf: Controversial or not.

[Whizkid]

Participating in my own question, I think Major Kira Nerys was the best "female" character ST turned out. As someone said, given ST: Picard, perhaps 7(9) too, who's also a favorite and perhaps the only one who can displace Kira, but no. Kira's character arc: impoverished daughter, terrorist, liaison, mentor (to Ziyal and Jake), lover and eventually Commander...wow!

But doesn't her arc match Worf's? In as much as both are unlucky in love and torn between their responsibilities to the "Federation" versus homeland?

Worf: K'Ehleyr, Deanna Troi, Jadzia Dax
Kira: Vedek Bareil, Shakaar, Odo

Such outstanding tragic characters both.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm not sure how either are "Controversial."

 

[Whizkid]

I'm not sure how either are "Controversial."

Oh I meant in the sense that, in world, both are always creating "trouble." (Which was the very basis of their morality and ethos) So for instance J-LP has to redirect Enterprise to the Klingon homeworld along with Worf to help him rescue his honor as his Cha'Dich? (Hope I got that right). ~ TNG: Sins of the Father. As Sisko has to go to Bajor repeatedly, mostly to get Kira back. ~ DS9: Progress.

 

[dupersuper]

No more than any other character. How many times did Data take over the ship? Remember when Jadzia took off with her Klingon buddies to go kill a guy and eat his heart?

 

[Whizkid]

Kor, Kang and Koloth.

The great Klingon da'har masters. They asked Jadzia because she was carrying Curzons symbiont. Jadzia screwed them up.

 

[Oddish]

They are both strongly identified by the faith of their people. Although it's a Sisko episode, one reason why I really like "Accession" is because of where it takes Kira: she has to face some hard choices.

 

[Whizkid]

I love Kor.

 

[Farscape One]

Kira and Worf do share a very strong faith in their respective religion. As far as their lovers...

Kira: Bareil dies, breaks up with Shakaar, Odo leaves to be with his people.

Worf: K'Ehleyr, mother to his son, is murdered. Deanna... they break up off screen. Jadzia, his wife, murdered.


I think Worf has a much more tragic love life. But personal history, I think Kira has had a much harder road.

Both characters were conflicted about many things on many occasions, but it wasn't until DS9 that Worf was fully realized. Kira definitely was fully realized, and there is a strong argument that she is the most fully realized female character in the franchise... definitely head to head with Seven.

 

[Sci]

Kira really isn't torn between two conflicting cultures though. She's a Bajoran nationalist who's always going to pick what's best for Bajor over the interests of the Federation if the two conflict. She's happy that they don't usually conflict and she's genuine friends with her Federation comrades, but for instance in DS9 S7 when the Federation refused to back up Bajor after the Romulans installed munitions on a Bajoran moon, she didn't hesitate to lead a blockade of Bajoran ships around Derna against the Federatio's Romulan allies.

Worf is much more torn, because Worf sincerely believes in both the Federation and the Empire and the two keep coming into conflict. Worf eventually chooses to try to reconcile the two by forcing the Empire to become more honorable by installing Martok, but the conflict between the part of him that is loyal to the Empire and the part that's loyal to the Federation is much more real. Kira isn't conflicted; she loves Bajor and she'll always choose Bajor.

 

[Whizkid]

Very interesting point @Sci. Thanks.
It holds however, only to this extent: Bajoran and Federation ideals are opposed.

 

[Sci]

Very interesting point @Sci. Thanks.
It holds however, only to this extent: Bajoran and Federation ideals are opposed.

Well, are they? That's kind of the point I'm making: Because the interests of Bajor and the interests of the Federation are usually aligned, Kira doesn't really have to choose between the two very often. This is in contrast to Worf, who has been forced to choose between the Federation and the Klingon Empire several times as a result of the UFP's and Empire's interests conflicting.

But when there is a conflict between the Federation's interests and Bajor's interests, Kira never hesitates to choose Bajor over the Federation, because ultimately she is not loyal to the Federation; this too is in contrast with Worf, because Worf does hesitate when he's forced to pick between the UFP and the Empire, because Worf is loyal to both the UFP and the Empire.

So Worf and Kira are different in two ways:

• How often they have to pick between the Federation and their home cultures
• Whether or not they're loyal to the Federation in the first place

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I thought this was going to be the fact Kira is a tougher, more badass fighter than Worf and she could mop the deck with that Klingon.

 

[Oddish]

Both characters were conflicted about many things on many occasions, but it wasn't until DS9 that Worf was fully realized.

DS9 was just the sort of show that realized its characters, allowing them to grow and evolve and become more. TNG was a bit more prone to hitting the Reset button.

But when there is a conflict between the Federation's interests and Bajor's interests, Kira never hesitates to choose Bajor over the Federation, because ultimately she is not loyal to the Federation

You did notice that she wears a Bajoran militia uniform. That is the organization she is bound to serve, and Bajor is the world she is bound to protect. That doesn't mean she isn't loyal to the Federation, to an extent.

thought this was going to be the fact Kira is a tougher, more badass fighter than Worf and she could mop the deck with that Klingon.

In a fight between the two, I'd back Worf, due to his superior strength and Klingon durability. But Kira wouldn't go down easily.

 

[Whizkid]

I'd back Kira Oddish. Coz Worf's a gentleman. Kira ain't. She fought in the trenches.

Plus, Kira would beat Jadzia, who would beat Worf. Impossible triangle but nonetheless.

 

[Sci]

But when there is a conflict between the Federation's interests and Bajor's interests, Kira never hesitates to choose Bajor over the Federation, because ultimately she is not loyal to the Federation

You did notice that she wears a Bajoran militia uniform. That is the organization she is bound to serve, and Bajor is the world she is bound to protect. That doesn't mean she isn't loyal to the Federation, to an extent.

I mean, what does that mean? She might be "loyal" to the Federation to the extent that she wishes it well and wants Bajor to remain allied to it. In the same way, an officer of the British Royal Navy may be "loyal" to the United States -- in an extremely limited, non-binding sense. But it's not a real loyalty; if there was a conflict between the United States and the United Kingdom, the British Royal Navy officer will chose the U.K. over the U.S. So I don't really think the word "loyalty" is appropriate.

Kira likes the Federation. She wishes it well. But she's not loyal to the Federation. As you note, it is not her world, not the sovereign state to which she has sworn an oath.* She is an officer of the Bajoran Militia, and she will always chose the Republic of Bajor first.

* (Well, okay, she probably swore some pro forma oath to receive her Starfleet commission during the DS9 Final Chapter arc, but that was a fake commission issued to give Damar an excuse for why his men should listen to her as a Starfleet adviser rather than as a Bajoran Militia officer. Nobody in the Federation or Bajoran governments actually expects her to honor that oath if there were to be a conflict between the UFP and Bajor.)

 

[Oddish]

We're basically saying the same thing, just using different interpretations of the word "loyalty".

If Bajor joined the Federation, and the Bajoran militia (its space division anyway) was folded into Starfleet, Kira would be loyal to Starfleet in your terms. Because Bajor now was part and parcel of the Federation.

 

[Sci]

We're basically saying the same thing, just using different interpretations of the word "loyalty".

If Bajor joined the Federation, and the Bajoran militia (its space division anyway) was folded into Starfleet, Kira would be loyal to Starfleet in your terms. Because Bajor now was part and parcel of the Federation.

Agreed. Though I don't know that Kira would actually support Bajor joining the Federation. I suspect she might decide she would prefer for Bajor to remain an independent world.

 

[Oddish]

Possibly. But where Bajor led, she would follow.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

In a fight between the two, I'd back Worf, due to his superior strength and Klingon durability. But Kira wouldn't go down easily.

Kira is a scrapper, used to taking on bigger, stronger opponents, but she's brought down a Klingon with a knife in her side, several security guards when heavily pregnant, and took Damar down with little effort.

As for her and Worf having similar arcs, personally I don't see it. She made it very clear early on her loyalty was to Bajor, and whilst she comes to trust and respect the Starfleeters she serves with, she will always go with what she believes is best for Bajor (including considering resigning her commission to become an artist when Sisko's claim to the Emissary was challenged).

The only time she really has a conflict with sorting out how she feels about her culture and her duty is when it comes to Sisko being the Emissary. She wants him to depend on her as his XO and be seen as an officer under his command, but she does see him as an important figure in her beliefs which does cause some tension and distance between them, though they do grow a close working relationship and friendship throughout.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Worf truly has a cursed member. Notice, in the timeline where Troi ended up with Worf, she died. In the timeline where she broke up, she survived. Anyone who attempts to marry Worf is doomed to die.

I wouldn't compare the two characters other than feeling very close to their heritage and having an attitude. First off, Kira only has one dead ex, the others just broke up with her, and on good terms. And you have to think, Kira was just looking for an excuse to dump Shakaar, and that ritual gave her what she wanted.

Worf spent his career torn between two cultures, having human values with Klingon aggression but trying to honor his heritage in a way that doesn't break those human values. His arc is about accepting that he's not the same as other Klingons. Kira's arc is about healing. Reconciling the terrorist with a world that has no further call for it. Accepting the violence within her as part of who she is before she can accept the peace and safety of a free Bajor.