Ambassador Class Variations

[Dukhat]

I like it too. The only issue I can see is that, unlike the Excelsior class where the prototype design is clearly older and inferior tech-wise to the Enterprise-B refit, the Ambassador prototype actually looks more advanced than the Enterprise-C or even the Zhukov/Excalibur/Yamaguchi variant. The prototype has the tapered hull like the Enterprise-D (and perhaps even the elliptical saucer that was part of the original design) while the Ent-C looks more like a hybrid between the TMP Enterprise-A and the Excelsior class, with some Ent-D windows thrown in.

 

[yotsuya]

I like it too. The only issue I can see is that, unlike the Excelsior class where the prototype design is clearly older and inferior tech-wise to the Enterprise-B refit, the Ambassador prototype actually looks more advanced than the Enterprise-C or even the Zhukov/Excalibur/Yamaguchi variant. The prototype has the tapered hull like the Enterprise-D (and perhaps even the elliptical saucer that was part of the original design) while the Ent-C looks more like a hybrid between the TMP Enterprise-A and the Excelsior class, with some Ent-D windows thrown in.

Yeah, I sort of see some of that. But for me, what I see is a ship that had a big improvement in engine design. The same size ship could be moved by shorter and likely more efficient warp coils. The design progression also shows a ship that couldn't seem to find quite the right place and with tinkering was improved, but never rose to the efficiency of the Miranda or Excelsior classes.

I like to take the oddball real world sequence of events and find an in-universe reason for them. So we know that the Amabassador Class Enterprise was lost 20 years before we see her. We encounter a handful of Ambassador Class ships still in service. Why? There are Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth class ships everywhere. What about the Ambassador Class was good enough for one to bear the name Enterprise, but not good enough for the class to serve. Either they were very expensive, or not very successful, or some combination thereof. With the variants we have at hand, we see a class that evolved a lot. But why? Were they making it better like the Constitution Class? Was it something that was highly successful in its day but other technology quickly surpassed it? Speed wise that his highly unlikely as speeds did not significantly increase between the Warp 14 that the TOS Enterprise achieved, the Warp 12 that the TMP refit was supposed to be capable of, and the Warp 14 that the Excelsior was designed for and the speeds the Ent D could reach fresh out of the factory. It features the phaser strips like the D. But it is not as sleek. It feels bulky. Another explanation is that they were only a handful built and like the Constitution Class before, were sent on missions where they did not survive. But it is a sizable ship.

So, whatever explanation you prefer, for some reason the Ambassador Class did not survive in sufficient numbers to see much service against the Borg or Dominion. And I feel the changes in design play into that. In the real world it was artistic direction that caused the various changes (decisions were made on what looked better or what was easier to build, etc.) but in the Star Trek universe, there should be some logic. The 1701 went through changes to make the class better. The designs went from the NX, to Daedelus, through a few unknowns, to the Constitution Class, Miranda Class, Excelsior Class, Constellation Class, Ambassador Class, to the Galaxy Class for an in-universe reason. I like to think that a ship's ability to surf the warp bubble had a lot to do with it. The Federation engineers found the flat saucer and twin nacelles was the best combination. They tried other things, but kept coming back to the same configuration. they varied the shapes, but kept the same basic arrangement. The flanges on the Ent B, Amabassador, and Galaxy, and so many galaxy inspired kitbashes would to to aid the ship in more effectively travel at warp speed. The extra impulse engines for the Ent B were an experiment for improving warp travel.

In reality a lot of these things are just the whim of a person in the production. But Matt Jefferies original design is so iconic that they generally don't stray too far. We get so many designers renditions of Jefferies original. The in-universe logic is just a fun thing to think about.

 

[yotsuya]

And one of my general observations after studying several of these studio models in some detail is that you have to be open to oddities. For instance, there seems to be some resistance to correctly placing the windows because they don't line up nicely. The Stargazer model has 4 rows of windows around the wide edge and they are positioned somewhat oddly with a gap between. My method has been to let the model tell me what it should be. Much better results that way. I tried to do that in the above drawing. I let the model tell me what the reconfiguration was for the Zhukov. I checked the windows and found they generally were in the same place. I did not do an extensive study of all the windows like I would do if I was drawing it from scratch.

 

[publiusr]

Lovely as always. Top notch!

There is a part of me that thinks the same design firm behind the TOS built this as a true Constitution follow on…with the refit and the Sovereign being from another.

Ent-C and the 11 footer would look best together, as would the 1701-A and Ent-E.

 

[Ottens]

I don't know if this was mentioned in the thread yet? May be helpful:

http://www.trekplace.com/l1d_probertambassador.html

 

[Arpy]

I’m my head canon the Ambassador is alive and well. Plentiful and ubiquitous. You know when you’re watching an episode that they’re reusing a model for budget reasons and you feel a bit deflated for it. Well, why internalize that? Why tell yourself the fleet that they’d show if they could, the fleet that makes sense in-universe, isn’t the fleet as it “actually” is, just because we haven’t seen it in the exceedingly few shots we got of it, in some cases with the camera angled just beyond where the right ships “actually” were?

I like to imagine a fleet replete with Ambassadors (of various variants, including ones we haven’t yet seen) and Apollos and yet other ships of the time period.

It makes sense that if the Galaxy is the new kid on the block at the start of TNG that there’d be a lot of those ships all over the place. And that later in the Dominion War fleet battles, when the bulk of the Allied Fleet made it to Cardassia Prime, there’d be at least one Sovereign Class ship there (maybe Admiral Ross’s flagship was the USS Sovereign) surrounded by a handful of Galaxys, surrounded by dozens of Ambassadors, scores of Excelsiors, and countless smaller and support craft.

 

[Dukhat]

^Because that’s not what we saw on screen?

Other than Wolf 359 and the Inquiry cut-and-paste fleet from PIC, the only large Starfleet fleet shots we’ve seen on screen were the DS9 fleets. And they consistently showed only Akiras, Sabers, Steamrunners, Excelsiors, Mirandas, four or five Galaxies, and two or three Defiants. These fleets represented everything Starfleet could throw against the Dominion, so there’s no reason to logically assume that there were any other classes of ships available, as unlikely as that sounds.

Of course, the reality is that this doesn’t make sense. If there were a multitude of old Excelsiors and Mirandas available, then there should logically be a multitude of Ambassadors, New Orleans, Springfields, Challengers, Cheyennes, Freedoms, Niagaras, Nebulas and Olympics available as well, not to mention the 15 or so conjectural classes, all of which were constructed after the Excelsior and Miranda classes.

The only explanation I’ve come up with is that most of those above classes only have a few ships to their name, and their registries are close together. That implies that only a few of them were actually constructed, and probably around the same time per class. Conversely, the registry range for the Excelsior (2XXX-4XXXX) and the Miranda (1XXX-3XXXX) are all over the map, indicating they were constructed over a long period of time, and many more were made.

So when you have 100 Excelsiors in service but only 10 New Orleans, then it makes more sense that we didn’t see any of the latter in the fleet but lots of the former.

It also stands to reason that the proliferation of the Akira, Saber and Steamrunner classes came about after Wolf 359, and were the replacement ships Shelby referred to, despite their low registry numbers. But instead of making 40 to replace the ones lost, Starfleet made 400.

(However, none of this explains why the Miranda class was so special that it lasted for 80 years while its contemporaries, the Constitution, Constellation and Soyuz classes, were retired much, much earlier.)

 

[yotsuya]

^Because that’s not what we saw on screen?

Other than Wolf 359 and the Inquiry cut-and-paste fleet from PIC, the only large Starfleet fleet shots we’ve seen on screen were the DS9 fleets. And they consistently showed only Akiras, Sabers, Steamrunners, Excelsiors, Mirandas, four or five Galaxies, and two or three Defiants. These fleets represented everything Starfleet could throw against the Dominion, so there’s no reason to logically assume that there were any other classes of ships available, as unlikely as that sounds.

Of course, the reality is that this doesn’t make sense. If there were a multitude of old Excelsiors and Mirandas available, then there should logically be a multitude of Ambassadors, New Orleans, Springfields, Challengers, Cheyennes, Freedoms, Niagaras, Nebulas and Olympics available as well, not to mention the 15 or so conjectural classes, all of which were constructed after the Excelsior and Miranda classes.

The only explanation I’ve come up with is that most of those above classes only have a few ships to their name, and their registries are close together. That implies that only a few of them were actually constructed, and probably around the same time per class. Conversely, the registry range for the Excelsior (2XXX-4XXXX) and the Miranda (1XXX-3XXXX) are all over the map, indicating they were constructed over a long period of time, and many more were made.

So when you have 100 Excelsiors in service but only 10 New Orleans, then it makes more sense that we didn’t see any of the latter in the fleet but lots of the former.

It also stands to reason that the proliferation of the Akira, Saber and Steamrunner classes came about after Wolf 359, and were the replacement ships Shelby referred to, despite their low registry numbers. But instead of making 40 to replace the ones lost, Starfleet made 400.

(However, none of this explains why the Miranda class was so special that it lasted for 80 years while its contemporaries, the Constitution, Constellation and Soyuz classes, were retired much, much earlier.)

I have to kind of disagree. I think we can both imagine the greater fleet and find an reason for what we see on screen. The fleet is huge. There are many fronts, many battles. What we see in DS9 are the battle groups led by the Galaxy class ships and supported by the Excelsior and Miranda class ships. That does not mean that Ambassador class ships aren't taking point in other areas. Space is vast and Starfleet would have secondary task forces assigned to less likely, but no less important, lines of defense.

I see the large number of Excelsior and Miranda class ships as the results of both a pair of very durable designs, and the high numbers they were originally built in. They were designed when the threat of war with the Klingons was high. When that passed, there was still the threat of the Romulans (and there was evidently an incident not long after ST:VI/Generations). So there was need to have a large fleet of sturdy ships. They were so numerous and sturdy that when the Borg threat materialized and then the Dominion War started, that they were easy to put back in service and beef up to late 24th century standards. These would be ships that had served their time and were giving a last return on Starfleet's investment.

And the Excelsior and Miranda both appear to have the same mega phaser we see on the Ingram plans (likely taken from the Reliant design). Excelsior's are somewhat hidden, but I can point them out, fore and aft. So they were well armed when they were built. Couple that with advances over 80 years and they become formidable weapons. So you can couple the ship design, the fact they had the models on hand (easy to digitize), and what we see on screen to form a logical reason for what we see on screen.

And you can do the same for what we don't see. We see the heroes of the story - the DS9 characters - and their role in the Dominion War. You don't see the whole war. You don't see every battle, every front, every ship in service. And not only that, but there is the rest of the Federation to consider. Starfleet can't just pull out all their ships from all areas and push then to the war front. They have to leave the right ones on duty in the far corners of the Federation to protect from other threat and natural disasters. The Ambassador class would be perfect in that role, as would some of the other newer ships. The Ambassador was the queen of the fleet 30 years before. Now the Galaxy is coming online and taking over. But the Enterprise was launched just a decade before the Dominion War and it was the 2nd of the class. So there can't be that many Galaxy Class ships and we certainly see a lot of them. Likely with half finished interiors so they could use their fire power. Several are destroyed. So the Ambassador class are likely heading lesser task forces and patrolling the far edges of the Federation, so we don't see them in DS9. The Constellation and Constitution Classes are long outdated and didn't carry the firepower of the Excelsior or Miranda class ships. So if they exist, they were put into service in lesser roles to free up more powerful ships for the war effort.

We have only to look to WWII to see this all play out in history. At the start they pressed every vessel into service, regardless of how fit it was, but as the new classes came online, the older classes that were not fit for service were pushed back to supporting roles. Saratoga and Enterprise proved as effective as any of the Essex class ships so they served through the war. Enterprise was the most decorated ship of the war. The war ends and both were retired. Saratoga as the sample carrier in the nuclear tests at the Bikini Atol (they still had to scuttle her to sink her) and Enterprise was sold for scrap when no plans to save her as a museum materialized. Her fame was immortalized with two aircraft carriers and 8 starships named after her. Enterprise is like the Excelsior. For as we see in Picard, the fleet is new. So following the Dominion War, all those old ships would be replaced with newer ones. The reserve fleet would be updated. I can see Starfleet building large numbers of new designs and making sure they have a powerhouse in reserve for the next threat. They aren't quite done with the Borg I should think.

 

[jackoverfull]

Easier to upgrade and produce and man and with less weak points. Explained.

 

[Arpy]

^Because that’s not what we saw on screen?

What you see on screen is a freaking TV show. It’s not real. It’s the new they can cobble together in a couple weeks. And it’s always different when they revisit a period. Tim Russ was a freaking human in TUC and a Vulcan in “Flashback.” DSC is nothing like “The Cage.” 359 in “Emissary” showed nearly none of the ships we saw in BoBW.

Other than Wolf 359 and the Inquiry cut-and-paste fleet from PIC, the only large Starfleet fleet shots we’ve seen on screen were the DS9 fleets. And they consistently showed only Akiras, Sabers, Steamrunners, Excelsiors, Mirandas, four or five Galaxies, and two or three Defiants. These fleets represented everything Starfleet could throw against the Dominion, so there’s no reason to logically assume that there were any other classes of ships available, as unlikely as that sounds.

Andy they did so without any shields. Don’t be so literal man. The people making the show aren’t.

Of course, the reality is that this doesn’t make sense. If there were a multitude of old Excelsiors and Mirandas available, then there should logically be a multitude of Ambassadors, New Orleans, Springfields, Challengers, Cheyennes, Freedoms, Niagaras, Nebulas and Olympics available as well, not to mention the 15 or so conjectural classes, all of which were constructed after the Excelsior and Miranda classes.

The only explanation I’ve come up with is that most of those above classes only have a few ships to their name, and their registries are close together. That implies that only a few of them were actually constructed, and probably around the same time per class. Conversely, the registry range for the Excelsior (2XXX-4XXXX) and the Miranda (1XXX-3XXXX) are all over the map, indicating they were constructed over a long period of time, and many more were made.

That’s a clever way to look at it, but honestly, I never look at registry numbers. Every other ship we see could have the same one, and I’d barely notice. They could be completely random numbers and be less of a headache for people.

 

[USS Firefly]

Maybe most of the Ambassador class ships were on deep space assignments and or defending the core planeten?

 

[jackoverfull]

Tim Russ was a freaking human in TUC and a Vulcan in “Flashback.”

different characters on different ships.

Maybe most of the Ambassador class ships were on deep space assignments and or defending the core planeten?

could be. They sure look like ships built for long deep space missions to me.

 

[Arpy]

different characters on different ships.

Right, who look exactly alike.

 

[jackoverfull]

Two individuals can resemble each other. So what?

 

[ChallengerHK]

What you see on screen is a freaking TV show. It’s not real.

But the context of the discussion (and probably half of the discussions here) is diegetic, within the universe, as if it is real.

 

[Dukhat]

What you see on screen is a freaking TV show. It’s not real.

Saying 'it's a freaking TV show' completely misses the points I was making. By that logic, the TrekBBS shouldn't exist and we fans shouldn't be talking about stuff like this because 'it's just a freaking TV show.' Using that trope is just a straw man and has no place in this discussion.

And they did so without any shields.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement.

That’s a clever way to look at it, but honestly, I never look at registry numbers. Every other ship we see could have the same one, and I’d barely notice. They could be completely random numbers and be less of a headache for people.

So because you don't look at registry numbers, no one else should either?

Maybe most of the Ambassador class ships were on deep space assignments and or defending the core planeten?

There is zero canon evidence that this is the case.

Right, who look exactly alike.

Nick Locarno and Tom Paris would like a word with you. Not to mention Sarek and the Romulan Commander. Oh, hey, Number One and Christine Chapel just joined the discussion!

 

[USS Firefly]

There is zero canon evidence that this is the case.

I know, that is why I said MAYBE.

 

[Dukhat]

I have to kind of disagree. I think we can both imagine the greater fleet and find an reason for what we see on screen. The fleet is huge. There are many fronts, many battles. What we see in DS9 are the battle groups led by the Galaxy class ships and supported by the Excelsior and Miranda class ships. That does not mean that Ambassador class ships aren't taking point in other areas. Space is vast and Starfleet would have secondary task forces assigned to less likely, but no less important, lines of defense.

Here's the situation, though. Deep Space Nine and the wormhole was the most strategic point of the war. The Dominion had taken over the station, and 2800 battleships were poised to come through from the Gamma Quadrant to help the invasion. The logical scenario would be for Starfleet (and the Klingons) to use their most advanced and top-of-the-line ships for that battle fleet. Other fleets engaging Dominion forces in other sectors of space pale in comparison to this operation. Yet what we actually see are debatably three of Starfleet's more advanced ships, alongside two old and out-of-date ship classes that seem to end up as cannon fodder...and the Defiant. The four or five Galaxy class ships do make a good complement to the others, but I still cannot see the logic in not throwing the absolute best you have against a superior opponent in the most important battle of the war.

I see the large number of Excelsior and Miranda class ships as the results of both a pair of very durable designs, and the high numbers they were originally built in. They were designed when the threat of war with the Klingons was high. When that passed, there was still the threat of the Romulans (and there was evidently an incident not long after ST:VI/Generations). So there was need to have a large fleet of sturdy ships. They were so numerous and sturdy that when the Borg threat materialized and then the Dominion War started, that they were easy to put back in service and beef up to late 24th century standards. These would be ships that had served their time and were giving a last return on Starfleet's investment.

I believe that during the 'Lost Years' (the 70 year period between the last time we saw the TMP era and the start of TNG), the Excelsior class was the foremost vessel in Starfleet, mass-produced at a large rate, and lasting right up to the 2350's when Starfleet started producing newer classes with Galaxy class components, but at a much smaller rate. I have no problem thinking that the Excelsior was the workhorse for over 50 years. My issue is that I don't really see the Miranda class in the same light. It doesn't seem to be any more durable than the Soyuz class, the Constitution class, or the Constellation class, but we saw none of those in the fleet.

I know, that is why I said MAYBE.

I only brought it up because the Ambassador being away on deep space missions has been a fan favorite theory for some time. But the problem is that this could easily apply to the 20 or so other classes that we barely saw or saw not at all. Not to mention that every time we did see an Ambassador, it was not on a deep space mission.

 

[Arpy]

Two individuals can resemble each other. So what?

Outside of entertainment, not by that much.

But the context of the discussion (and probably half of the discussions here) is diegetic, within the universe, as if it is real.

To an extent. You could say the ships were offscreen and the camera didn’t encompass them. But if you’re going to be completely literal then why do the aliens look like they have latex and makeup on their heads? Why does everyone act like they’re actors in a TV show instead of how they would in real life? Why do characters’ hair and makeup magically change between shots. Why do most of the rooms look like sets? Etc, etc.

Saying 'it's a freaking TV show' completely misses the points I was making. By that logic, the TrekBBS shouldn't exist and we fans shouldn't be talking about stuff like this because 'it's just a freaking TV show.' Using that trope is just a straw man and has no place in this discussion.

I hit a nerve? But it is just a freaking TV show, and to take every shortcoming as a feature not a bug is problematic.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement.

They couldn’t afford shield bubbles. Or for that matter to have the right number of ships, kinds of ships, including support craft, number of weapons fires, explosions, damages to ships, debris, maneuvers, etc.

There is zero canon evidence that this is the case.

There’s zero evidence against as well?

Nick Locarno and Tom Paris would like a word with you. Not to mention Sarek and the Romulan Commander. Oh, hey, Number One and Christine Chapel just joined the discussion!

Exactly. It’s a TV show.

 

[Dukhat]

I hit a nerve? But it is just a freaking TV show, and to take every shortcoming as a feature not a bug is problematic.

Then don't bother posting if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation other than derogatorily saying 'it's just a tv show.' Why are you a member of this site if you think that?

If you have no interest in a discussion about ships and registry numbers, fine. But other people do, and don't appreciate someone butting into their conversation with nothing more than a beratement of their viewing habits.