Properties of dilithium
- Thread starter Death Ray
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Given the references to it being mined, I'm tempted to say no. It's been inferred in other cases (like the Starfleet replicators not being to create Romulan ale) that it's mainly a matter of programming the physical properties based on a real sample, but it might be more complex than that.
There is however mention of Dilithium Recrystallization & Dilithium Incubators.
I'm sure somebody can setup an entire Industry on growing Dilithium on a massive industrial scale to provide as a resource for the rest of the UFP.
I'm sure somebody can setup an entire Industry on growing Dilithium on a massive industrial scale to provide as a resource for the rest of the UFP.
Replicators only need (mainly) the molecular structure of a material that needs to be replicated... its extremely insane to think that it would be impossible to replicate them.
But the prevalence of dilithium mining seems to suggest it can't be.
As KamenRiderBlade mentioned, dilithium recrystalization existed in late 23rd century... or at least it did by the time of ST IV movie as far as we know - its possible that this technology was shared with UFP by queen Po given Discovery's actions to prevent Control from destroying all life... although it would be nice to think UFP invented this technology by itself... but to be fair, it makes sense Po might give the tech to SF/UFP as an unofficial 'thank you' for actions of Disco crew... still, the Dilithium incubator was able to reproduce the power of a supoernova through use of dark matter - which is a mightly powerful source of energy if you ask me... but these properties aren't ever used for that purpose... only for the purpose of recrystalizing Dilithium.
And it should be doable by UFP to effectively grow Dilihtium on an industrial scale as a resource for UFP as opposed to scouring the area of space it occupies for it... but the writers don't really think in such a capacity.
Otherwise, synthetic dilithium would have been a thing by the 24th century.
But as evidenced by TOS apparently and Disco, Dilithium is not solely used to 'regulate' M/AM reactions.
It can also be used as a power source.
But the prevalence of dilithium mining seems to suggest it can't be.
As KamenRiderBlade mentioned, dilithium recrystalization existed in late 23rd century... or at least it did by the time of ST IV movie as far as we know - its possible that this technology was shared with UFP by queen Po given Discovery's actions to prevent Control from destroying all life... although it would be nice to think UFP invented this technology by itself... but to be fair, it makes sense Po might give the tech to SF/UFP as an unofficial 'thank you' for actions of Disco crew... still, the Dilithium incubator was able to reproduce the power of a supoernova through use of dark matter - which is a mightly powerful source of energy if you ask me... but these properties aren't ever used for that purpose... only for the purpose of recrystalizing Dilithium.
And it should be doable by UFP to effectively grow Dilihtium on an industrial scale as a resource for UFP as opposed to scouring the area of space it occupies for it... but the writers don't really think in such a capacity.
Otherwise, synthetic dilithium would have been a thing by the 24th century.
But as evidenced by TOS apparently and Disco, Dilithium is not solely used to 'regulate' M/AM reactions.
It can also be used as a power source.
Non Canon sources state Dilithium has a higher dimensional component, hence replicators cannot produce it.
Remember, this is the same world where Latinum can't be replicated. So Replicators aren't all mighty and there are limits to the replication technology.
Well, to be fair, we were never told explicitly that Latinum cannot be replicated.
Its just that gold pressed latinum is a currency of choice for the Ferengi and Bajor in general... or at least in that part of space.
UFP doesn't use money/currency... they tend to trade with species not part of UFP... so I would imagine they would prefer to engage in a direct transfer of goods to exchange them for something relatively useful.
And as I maintained before, UFP is huge... and given its overall technology etc. it would be capable of creating anything it could possibly imagine (and then some) in sustainable abundance with minimal impact... so trade with other species whose economies rely on money is probably encouraged for the purpose of nurturing good relations rather than for anything UFP may need resource-wise.
As for limits to replicator technology... only in the sense that they are energy intensive devices (presumably because they convert energy into matter)... otherwise, they have sensors that are accurate to the subatomic... are we seriously going to say that such scanning capabilities would be unable to provide the replicator with everything it needs to make a replica?
A Ds9 replicator (before UFP upgraded the station) was able to make bigger replicas of probabilistic machines (technology it never encountered before to date) with just a few words.
That's kinda how a computer would be able to behave... since its effectively processing data at transluminal speeds and is capable of trillions probabilistic calculations... even if the technology is unfamiliar, it would be able to learn from what is familiar (however vague it may be) and arrive at fairly reasonable extrapolations that provide the same result.
If Latinum was easily replicatable, then Latinum would be WORTHLESS as a physical currency since massive easy replication would inflate the currency.
Just like you can't replicate a living creature with the replicator, there are stated limits to what the replicator can do as a general technology.
If you could replicate latinum then why did Morn rob that bank?
Lack of access to a replicator.
A lot of species we saw on Ds9 might not have belonged to UFP (morn could have been one of those)... and since Ds9 was at the time Bajoran station with UFP being there in administrative capacity (to prevent the Cardassians from returning), people (except for Starfleet officers) probably needed to use currency of choice to do business on the station.
There is no reason to think that non UFP species with a monetary economy would have replicators with full functionality out in the open.
That's where the UFP differs.
Except for industrial grade replicators... replicators as a technology are abundant throughout UFP.
Well, in the real world, 92% of money in existence is digital ... only 8% is cash... and we can (and do) print it at will... its just tightly regulated.
No reason to think a similar practice wouldn't be implemented by Ferengi (andother non UFP species) and their replicators would be tightly controlled piece of technology which would have limited functionality so en-mass they CAN'T replicate latinum.
Meanwhile, UFP would probably not instill such limitations in its own replicators, but generally would see no need to replicate latinume because majority of the stuff they may need or want can already be acquired inside UFP.
Its also possible replicated products aren't 'valued' the same as 'real' items by the Ferengi and other species that use money.
The UFP on the other hand doesn't use gold pressed latinum... it actively engages in pure trade with non-aligned species.
But apparently UFP medical science can replicate nerves and various other cells which can be used in medical procedures... the tissues themselves need to be fresh and viable enough for use in a biological organism... that was before the Genotron btw... and factor that technology in too... so, yeah.
ST: Enterprise established that replication technology as available on that automated station cannot replicate a living creature... but there's no reason to think UFP's replication technology would have same limits as I don't think we have actually seen such clear limits of 24th century UFP replication technology exist by itself.
And UFP has strict regulation AGAINST creating clones etc... so making living creatures would probably be something that UFP would NOT be doing... and for all we know, UFP replication technology could be unique in that regard as UFP is supposed to be more technologically advanced of non-aligned species when you factor in a pool of over 150 different species in the UFP that contribute knowledge, technology, science and resources into the mix... just tightly regulated in the sense that replicators won't be used for certain things - there might be intentional programmed limits to what a replicator is ALLOWED to make (say, a rare form of Nogatch hemlock)... and maybe other items that are tightly controlled in UFP.
Similar with how transporter tech can make a person young again in seconds... but have we seen this being used again?
Nope. Probably because its been tightly regulated or it doesn't work on people whose genetic profile was intact by the virus.
In fact, the only notable limitation to replicators which was mentioned is energy... and degrees of what can be replicated in copious amounts without exceeding your available power generation (which has been established as a problem on starships as they have finite amounts of power - but still enough to last them for years at a time - in developed solar systems however... energy isn't much of a problem).
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I guess we have different interpretations of technology and how the Replicator tech will evolve.
This is normal for me and you, I guess we'll "agree to disagree" on what limitations there are on Replicator Tech and how it's used in society.
I agree with Deks, replication of dilithium should be possible, but I believe it must take too much energy to replicate or grow efficiently in comparison to mining. So even in the post peak dilithium era of the Burn people are still focused on mining the stuff. Except for one thing.
DIS is leaning very hard on the DS9 Tech Manual explanation that replicators use stock material and are not energy to matter machines, thanks to the whole shit to apples line. So it is likely they can make chemicals but not elements.
Unfortunately that would mean the question of whether latinum or dilithium can be replicated is meaningless because if those two things are elements then they can't be made without having the particular element in the first place. Then the answer is silly, because yes you can replicate dilithium if you already have dilithium. But if they are chemicals then its just a question of finding all the elements to combine for replication.
In the truly worst case, Star Trek should at least have fusion based atomic synthesis to get elements heavier than iron. It would be energy intensive but that's what Dyson swarms are for.
DIS is leaning very hard on the DS9 Tech Manual explanation that replicators use stock material and are not energy to matter machines, thanks to the whole shit to apples line. So it is likely they can make chemicals but not elements.
Unfortunately that would mean the question of whether latinum or dilithium can be replicated is meaningless because if those two things are elements then they can't be made without having the particular element in the first place. Then the answer is silly, because yes you can replicate dilithium if you already have dilithium. But if they are chemicals then its just a question of finding all the elements to combine for replication.
In the truly worst case, Star Trek should at least have fusion based atomic synthesis to get elements heavier than iron. It would be energy intensive but that's what Dyson swarms are for.
It works if the actual value of latinum is in the energy it takes to make it, or it's actually a fiat currency and not a gold standard. We really have no information on the currency, just an assumption it must be future gold, and an assumption it is non-replicatable as pushed by the DS9 Tech Manual. That is further pushed by DIS when it turns out the sleeping aliens have latinum in their bodies, implying it is a natural substance, unless they're actually like Morn and just store their latinum in their extra stomach as a purse. That's my new head-canon.
I noticed that too and didn't like that.
UFP replication technology was suggested in TNG and VOY to convert energy into matter (not use raw matter for conversion of one form into another)... hence why replicators are energy intensive.
Data even mentioned in TNG at one point the power drain was so severe they lost the ability to replicate complex elements (not chemicals).
So, replication of elements themselves was possible in the 24th century with UFP replicators.
It is also possible that in the 24th century and for many centuries onward, replicators indeed converted energy into matter.
It wasn't until the Burn the UFP may have decided to switch out for less sophisticated replication technology which converted matter from one form into another. It got the job done with far lower energy demands after all (which would be understandable due to the Burn and possible energy scarcity that would ensue due to scarcity of dilithium as a whole).
Pretty much. If you have both dilithium and gold pressed latinum in existence and are using them on a regular basis, its likely they have been scanned and studied to death in regard to their composition and overall capabilities... ergo, making synthetic versions with identical (or even BETTER) properties would be doable using replicators.
Trek writers don't really think like that though.
Hence my idea that since a Dyson Swarm was something that was practical for us in real life to make since 1990 (and would have taken us about 10 - 15 years to build thanks to automation and exponential construction and Mercury for raw materials - not to mention new advances in technology/science as the swarm is being built by autonomous self-replicating bots which would also upgrade themselves in the process and can do 'bacground research and development' using adaptive algorithms), in the world of Star Trek, energy collected by the Dyson Swarm could easily power the replicators to allow creation of needed matter from energy itself (and Star Trek suggests heavily that in the 24th century, subspace technology seems to be ENHANCING power generation by orders of magnitude).
In fact, replicators in UFP remove the need for mining of most elements.
I think having a fraction of the star's power for replication would easily negate any efficiency issues associated with direct energy to matter conversion (especially because solar accumulation and conversion technology would be highly advanced by even mid 22nd century - and by the 23rd and 24th centuries, UFP would likely be able to extract MORE energy by having their solar collection technology to harvest most kinds of radiation and energy emitted by the stars)... plus, Trek already played fast and lose with science... seeing how they were able to improve on energy efficiency of replicators before... this would suggest fine tuning of subspace tech which is used for energy amplification effect (because, otherwise, the amount of energy an Ent-D Warp core produces for example FAR surpasses Galaxy class antimatter/matter storage physical storage capabilities... VOY further hinted at the premise subspace technology is used for energy amplification).
Well, the tehcnical manuals aren't canon, so we don't have to ascribe by the analogy that gold pressed latinum isn't replicable.
After all, quantum torpedoes are mentioned by DS9 technical manual that they use zero point energy... and yet, there is 0 mention of this power generation method on-screen.
Most of all, by the 32nd century, you'd think 'someone' would have thought to expand on this and use it as an actual power source.
But Trek is NOTORIOUS for UFP not using many technologies... even if they actively developed, stabilized or were proven to work (but needed adjusting/modifications).
Realistically, the Burn should have never happened if you ask me... but it is what it is (sadly).
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My take is replicators could always function as matter to matter chemical synthesizers but didn't have to thanks to the wealth of energy in the 24th century.
I believed dilithium acts as a power amplifier, but I prefer the idea it is an invented technology and not just some rock they found making perpetual motion machines. Though there are some other explanations such as nearly free antimatter. If replicators work on the subatomic level to create atoms, then how hard is it to reverse the charge of an atom? At worst it turns antimatter into a true artificial fuel, getting more energy out then put in to make it, where as if we manufactured it today it would be more akin to an inefficiently charged battery, even if it would have extraordinary power density.
Though that is also why I think mining has to be far more efficient in most cases than energy to matter replication, otherwise mining would never occur. It is also partially why I think replicators must also work with raw materials, matter to matter as well as energy to matter, since that's the easiest way to utilize the mined resources.
Especially if the system also harvests solar matter along with the solar energy. It is easy to imagine some sort of energy field doing the trick like a hybrid tractor beam shield.
I'm still disappointed Earth's shield in DIS S3 didn't cover half the solar system's volume to harvest solar energy and hide a giant three dimensional swarm of space stations and ship.
I kind of like peak-dilithium, just not how no one bothered making anything better in the intervening centuries, even with temporal engines becoming the only game in town for a while. But, the Burn itself, yeah, I hate it.
I might accept the cost in replication is greater then the value of the Latium made. Still makes little sense to have a hard currency replicatable.
That would be consistent with how they were portrayed too.
Primary mode of 24th century UFP replicator function: Energy to matter (most other species probably might not have had this capability as UFP would be more advanced organisation due to how it works).
In case of severe power shortages, or if you are in the field and harvesting existing matter from the environment (if you want to recycle something) : matter to energy for saving and use in the futre or matter to matter conversion (much less energy demanding but still considered generally energy intensive due to 'transmutation' of elements from one form into another).
But one issue with the premise of replicators being 'energy intensive' if they convert matter to matter is: they wouldn't really be all that energy intensive in that case.
And 24th century consistently portrayed high energy use as a critical factor in replicators... so its possible direct matter to matter conversion was added later on or was possibly used in a non-Starfleet setting.
I don't think dilithium was described as a general power amplifier... though we have seen that VOY encountered a version of Dilithium in the DQ which remained stable at much higher Warp frequencies - but that seemingly didn't do much for breaking the TW threshold in terms of power generation.
Also, photon torpedoes have a destructive yield far surpassing what 'expected baseline yields' would actually be... and they don't use dilithium.
This is why I suggested the use of subspace technology as an energy amplifier seeing how the same technology is used to create a low level field around ships and lower the inertial mass of starships, allowing for very high sublight velocies (at least 75 000 km/s and maneuverability on par with extremely agile craft that have negligible mass)... plus, the technologies VOY encountered (such as the relay stations powered by black holes) emitted massive amounts of power... but seemingly, no dilithium was present in them.
Plus, on VOY, we have seen expansion of subspace manipulation technology with extremely powerful effects... with dilithium not specifically being mentioned as a crucial component... but rather subspace itself.
As far as I know, Dilithium was predominantly used for regulation of M/AM reactions by UFP... although it CAN be used as a power source as well (predominantly during TOS by at least one alien species).
Queen Po was able to use a dlithium chamber and recristalization technology to generate power of a supernova in Disco S2... but this could also be more connected with how subspace tech was manipulated rather than dilithium itself having an energy amplification effect (although I could be wrong).
Plus, its evident that queen Po never shared that 'power of a supernova' specification with the Federation... otherwise, wouldn't the ENT-D Warp core be at least similarly powerful?
The way I see it is that mining is accessible and used when necessary (aka, when energy demands of given elements far exceeds your available energy)... this is mainly for materials that may be extremely energetically dense or would be considered a waste to replicate by themselves.
Dilithium could belong in such a category... and I think Trek established in TOS that 'synthetic dilithium' was possible to make, however.. it didn't have any practical use.
Plus, lets not forget that UFP resorted to use of 'mining' methods since before it was founded (and well before it developed replicators). Its bound these operations would have been downscaled and upgraded over time and used in a supplementory fashion after energy to matter (and matter to matter) replicator technology was invented in order to further reduce environmental impact... but would overall still be used (at least as far as Dilithium goes).
Also, no existence of Dyson Swarms in UFP to provide massive power outputs for replicators (that we know of - nothing was mentioned UFP made any Dyson Swarms). And M/AM Warp cores (even with subpspace technology amplifying energy outputs) would only equal a power output of a star (384 million exawatts) if you had 30,236,220 of them in existence (which could potentially be the total amount of ships in the whole Milky Way galaxy) - assuming each of all of them had the same energy output of the ENT-D Warp core (12.7 exawatts as described in TNG).
Leading up to USS VOY launch, 74656 starships were apparently in UFP service... that's a far cry from 30.2 million Warp cores.
Even if we assume only 10 000 Warp capable species (baseline number) with EACH having 1000 starships (which would probably be more down to larger organisations like UFP having such a large amount of ships - but still noteworthy because we count multiple species together and all)... that's 10 million warp cores... or 127 million Exawatts (presuming if each Warp core is as powerful as the one on ENT-D).
According to ST: Prodigy, Zero mentioned there are 'millions of ships in the galaxy' (which would make sense)... but likely not all of them would have anywhere near the warp core energy output of a Galaxy class ship.
The Borg on the other hand skew those numbers a bit since Chakotay said they would have 'millions of vessels' (although we don't know how accurate this claim is and its possible he was just trying to exaggerate to deter Janeway from going through their space - it WOULD make sort of sense given they are essentially a hive and how powerful their nanotechnology was back then - although UFP also had nanotech with similar properties, just never used it).
Even if we assume about 3 million ships from the Borg, and the other 2 or 3 million ships from non-Borg species... that's about 6 million ships in the Galaxy.
Obviously a Borg Cube would have a higher power generation than a Galaxy class (by at least several times), but the collective wouldn't be comprised ONLY of cubes... in fact, the bulk of that fleet would be probes, Spheres and those ships we saw Borg renegades use).
Maybe 1 third of Borg ships would be Cubes... and assuming at least a power output of at least 3-5x higher than a Galaxy class per each cube...
So, I'd say even if there are 6 million ships' in the Milky Way Galaxy would approach (if not possibly MATCH) but might not EXCEED even 1 G-Type star in power generation... not counting any unknown super advanced species like the Q - remember the Borg skew these numbers by quite a bit.
At best, we're potentially looking at millions of ships in the galaxy being equal to 1, or possibly 1 and a half G-Type stars in terms of power generation.
On a galactic scale, that's literally nothing... and disappointing when you consider the premise that Trek technology easily allows these species to become Type III on Kardashev scale.
We are in real life Type 0-1 [practically] with technological ability to become Type II if we wanted to.
Trek civilizations like UFP should have easily been Type III and on its way of becoming Type IV in the 32nd century (Type II and their way becoming Type III from 22nd to 26th or 29th century).
I was expecting to see a Dyson Sphere in SOL when Disco appeared at the edge... or at least a Dyson Swarm with a solar system encompassing shield.
Imagine my disappointment.
This.
Though, dilithium didn't dry out until about 700 years after Disco left for the future - its still maddening to think nothing changed in all that time.
UFP had multiple options at different power sources to develop in the proceeding centuries. And we're to think NONE of them panned out?
Its extremely unrealistic to think M/AM and dilithium would be the only possibility for 930 years... its utterly stupid when you think about it (which is further compounded by the fact we were SHOWN in TNG and VOY technological power sources that are more powerful than M/AM, and the crews even had scans of those and was able to assist in maintenance and repair of said technology (which would definitely provide hand on experience and would be detailed in crews logs that would further give not just those crews, but UFP in general ideas about different and more advanced methods of power generation that do not involve dilithium or M/AM).
The only reason why Humanity (in real life) stuck to a specific methodology or power source for a very long time was because we were not particularly advanced technologically or scientifically as a species.
In fact, it wasn't until the industrial revolution we began to experience technological leaps in overall methods of production/manufacturing and power generation, whereas today, advancement occurs exponentially... and even now the only reason we stuck with fossil fuels for so long as we have was mainly due to the socio-economic system we have (not because we didn't have other options for the past 100 years that are far superior and better for the environment) - and we're barely starting out.
It was ridiculous to see in Trek nothing essentially changed since VOY came back home. In fact, things even seemingly regressed (with subspace technology energy amplification and reduction of ship's mass') seemingly forgotten or rectonned out of canon.
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However, using that reasoning, we shouldn't be able to make more money at will in real life... yet we do.
92% of money is digital and created out of thin air as numbers on a screen (which are backed by 'debt'/nothing - that's basically it). Only 8% of money in existence is cash (which can also be printed at will in as many quantities as governments deem necessary and is of course regulated by governments).
Which of course has nothing to do with scarcity... since Humanity has been producing abundance in every area using technology and science for a long time now (and can do so sustainbly).
No reason to think this model isn't in use by the Ferengi and other non-UFP species (aka, replicators could make gold pressed latinum and general form of currency, but those governments strictly limit widely used replicators to not being able to)... whereas the UFP has done away with the concept of money/currency, and therefore only implements restrictions to use of replication technology for specific things on moral grounds or/and if it has active ban on certain substances (such as compounds that can be used to make explosives, rare form on Nogatch Hamlock, etc. - basically, stuff that is generally seen as dangerous).
And as we saw, UFP doesn't use gold pressed latinum... it actively engages in direct trade of one type of resource for another... and probably only for maintaining of good relations between non aligned and new species... but likely not for general resources (seeing how vast UFP is and the existence of abundance of elements in UFP space and energy).
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A bit of real science to add into the mix: a charm meson has been caught switching from matter to antimatter all on its own. Now, if not dilithium, then TAS’ mention of regenerative fuel or something…
This might even make the Doomsday Machine “deactivating” anti-matter understandable
This might even make the Doomsday Machine “deactivating” anti-matter understandable
Do you have a link to research paper?
Seems to have been published by the Independent:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...tter-antimatter-subatomic-quark-b1865430.html
The paper should be here: https://arxiv.org/abs/2106.03744
Can be downloaded in PDF form.
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