Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x04 - "All Is Possible"

[Sci]

That would slow innovation, but not send it backwards.

No, isolation can cause knowledge and infrastructure to be lost. The Roman Empire had steam engines almost two thousand years before the technology was re-developed in Europe; the collapse of Roman trade networks and the isolation the collapse imposed led to a regression in technological development.

The idea that progress is linear and cannot be reversed is just not true.

 

[nic3636]

No, isolation can cause knowledge and infrastructure to be lost. The Roman Empire had steam engines almost two thousand years before the technology was re-developed in Europe; the collapse of Roman trade networks and the isolation the collapse imposed led to a regression in technological development.

The idea that progress is linear and cannot be reversed is just not true.

It would have been so interesting if they did something like that in S3. If only you were on the writing team

 

[Sci]

It would have been so interesting if they did something like that in S3. If only you were on the writing team

They did. DIS S3 made it clear that worlds like Hima were left in ruin and destitution as a result of the Burn, and that much knowledge about the wider universe had been lost. "People of Earth" made it clear that United Earth and the Human settlements in the rest of the Sol system had been out of communication so long that they didn't know jack shit about each other anymore.

 

[nic3636]

They did. DIS S3 made it clear that worlds like Hima were left in ruin and destitution as a result of the Burn, and that much knowledge about the wider universe had been lost. "People of Earth" made it clear that United Earth and the Human settlements in the rest of the Sol system had been out of communication so long that they didn't know jack shit about each other anymore.

that’s true but that’s all been peripheral. I meant it would have been nice if it (meaning a technological regression) happened to starfleet / the federation and been more central to the plot.

 

[Sci]

that’s true but that’s all been peripheral. I meant it would have been nice if it (meaning a technological regression) happened to starfleet / the federation and been more central to the plot.

Well, in at least one way there clearly has been some technological regression: The spore drive was still lost technology until the Discovery reappeared.

There's also an argument to be made that the fact that the 32nd Century has abandoned or lost time travel technology indicates some implicit technological regression. So too does the fact that they're not more advanced than they are.

But also, the idea that the center might broadly retain most of its knowledge but the periphery would lose it, is fairly realistic.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Temporal Cold War and open wars related to it may have led to many technologies taken for granted in previous centuries being outlawed under Federation law to protect the very fabric of space-time itself.

 

[XCV330]

Except Burnham says he was the first officer.

my mistake. the CO was probably in his ready room, taking the required "How To Defend Yourself On Bridge From Space Monks With Pointed Sticks" training. He was just getting to the "Step 2, think programmable matter phaser into your hand, we you know we can do that now, right?" section when it all went down.

 

[nic3636]

Well, in at least one way there clearly has been some technological regression: The spore drive was still lost technology until the Discovery reappeared.

That's true, and I'm glad they have so far kept the spore drive unique to Discovery, but that's more preserving the status quo of the show.

There's also an argument to be made that the fact that the 32nd Century has abandoned or lost time travel technology indicates some implicit technological regression. So too does the fact that they're not more advanced than they are.

Again true, but we are talking about some throwaway lines meant to reconcile with temporal cold wars described in ENT. Dealing with the fallout of this lost technology wasn't really part of the plot (other than the need to seek out the Guardian of Forever to help Georgiou.

But also, the idea that the center might broadly retain most of its knowledge but the periphery would lose it, is fairly realistic.

Maybe, but not necessarily. If the burn caused every ship and space station to explode (and who knows what else), the knowledge might still be in a database but the means to turn that knowledge into usable technology may not be there. They could have fleshed that out better.

 

[Fateor]

No, isolation can cause knowledge and infrastructure to be lost. The Roman Empire had steam engines almost two thousand years before the technology was re-developed in Europe; the collapse of Roman trade networks and the isolation the collapse imposed led to a regression in technological development.

The idea that progress is linear and cannot be reversed is just not true.

What you tactically forgot to mention, probably because it completely defeats what you were attempting to claim, was that the Aeolipile wasn't a practical source of power, and was not a direct predecessor of the type of steam engine invented during the Industrial Revolution.

It also wasn't actually lost, just regulated to being a whimsical novelty, because that's what it was, so it was just very few people actually bothered to have them produced instead of some sort of lack of knowledge.

Which, doubly defeats your attempt.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Temporal Cold War and open wars related to it may have led to many technologies taken for granted in previous centuries being outlawed under Federation law to protect the very fabric of space-time itself.

Or erased from history, which is about the only way you can explain them not transwarp beaming across the galaxy at the tap of a badge.

 

[SJGardner]

On knowledge being lost to history after a societal collapse: the actual historic Roman way to create concrete was believed lost for millennia, and even after finding the recipes, archeologists and engineers were unable to recreate any materials comparable in strength and durability to the actual Roman ones. Eventually they began to theorize that the Romans considered the real recipe a secret, writing the existing examples in code or even planting fake ones to prevent their enemies from copying it.

It took them until 2017 to realize that whenever the Romans wrote "aqua" in engineering documents, they meant salt water. It was obvious to the Romans whose culture developed in a coastal region, but the context was lost over time. The archeologists had been using tap water the whole time because it was semantically self-evident from the word "water", and didn't realize the salt water would react with the phillipsite in the volcanic ash, causing crystalline tobermorite to form and expand in the mortar, developing long, plate-shaped crystals that would flex when bending instead of shattering, resulting in a material that's significantly stronger than modern Portland cement.

 

[Sci]

What you tactically forgot to mention, probably because it completely defeats what you were attempting to claim,

There is a level of hostility here that seems unwarranted. We're all having a friendly chat, not fighting to win regionals, okay?

that the Aeolipile wasn't a practical source of power, and was not a direct predecessor of the type of steam engine invented during the Industrial Revolution.

I didn't go into detail because (and I thought this was pretty clear from my statement) if there had been a continuation of the kinds of technological development facilitated by political stability and trade over the course of nearly 2,000 years, the technology would have been developed into a practical steam engine much earlier than in real life.

It also wasn't actually lost,

It was certainly lost in peripheral corners of the former Roman Empire where isolation and economic collapse occurred! Just like how some knowledge and tech got lost in peripheral corners of the Federation when the UFP couldn't maintain its presence.

 

[G. Boney]

Eh, he could have just as easily been mixed something or other. Not every character played by a racially ambiguous person is hispanic.

Clearly not at all what I was saying. I was specifically talking about Culber who is played by Wilson Cruz who we know is Latino. I personally just assumed the latino dude was playing a latino character, given that diversity has always been a thing with Trek, and there have been very few latinx Trek cast members/characters to date.

 

[XCV330]

What you tactically forgot to mention, probably because it completely defeats what you were attempting to claim, was that the Aeolipile wasn't a practical source of power, and was not a direct predecessor of the type of steam engine invented during the Industrial Revolution.

It also wasn't actually lost, just regulated to being a whimsical novelty, because that's what it was, so it was just very few people actually bothered to have them produced instead of some sort of lack of knowledge.

Which, doubly defeats your attempt.

Regardless of the loss of Greek steam toys and calculators, there were important things lost with the collapse of the strong central government, especially in the western regions. Large scale manufacturing, concrete , the odometer, decent roads, peaceful shipping, the educational system, etc. If history is ultimately a tale of technological and regression, this is definitely a regression.

Much of that was in decline and already about to be lost before the Wars of Justinian (I don't like to give the death of Romulus Augustus as "The end". It was perfectly savable until the reconquest attempts in the sixth century made Rome and many other cities in Italy unlivable, made certain the Franks and Lombards would be unassailable and spent so much time on these there was never enough time to capitalize on the gains made against the Vandals in North Africa. I digresS).

It was a long slow decline capped with some final events that put a few final nails in the coffin. Not all that unlike what we see in Discovery, where it seems the loss of fuel already had created a centuries long crisis that culminated in The Burn.

But like The Burn, that did not mean development stopped altogether. New technologies seem to have developed. The same is true of the post-Roman world. The people left had no need for spinning steam gizmos or Herons' automata (the concrete might have been useful for rebuilding cities in Italy, but they had so many ruins to repurpose, the need was not there and neither was the engineering). New inventions from the east like the stirrup and the horse collar would radically change life. Sporadic raids from the northmen combined with the nonstop local wars of lordlings would lead to the development of castles, better seige engines et cetera. Learning did not stop but certainly was at a reduced scale for many years. There is an attemp to be revisionist about this lately. Scholars earn their keep rethinking things. But the early monastic systems of Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval period simply did not have the capacity of the classical era schools and academies. Learning had moved east. The new library was in Baghdad, until it too burned.

Of course its easier to keep learning alive when you have AI systems, holographic people, and records diffused over many worlds, but that doesn't mean that regression couldn't happen. I think the analogy is pretty good.

 

[cooleddie74]

There is something to be said for roads constructed by Romans 2,000 or more years ago still being usable while highways built in the past half-century are falling apart. Those Romans, to paraphrase the People's Front of Judea in The Life of Brian, got something right despite feelings to the contrary.

 

[nic3636]

There is something to be said for roads constructed by Romans 2,000 or more years ago still being usable while highways built in the past half-century are falling apart. Those Romans, to paraphrase the People's Front of Judea in The Life of Brian, got something right despite feelings to the contrary.

And if you take that into the world of Discovery, it's possible that technological components weren't really built to last. In the age of unlimited power and replication capacity, if something broke you could easily replicate a new one. And if the pace of technological innovation means you are replacing parts fairly regularly to upgrade them anyways, it further reduces the need for these things to last.

So then if the burn comes along and you no longer have unlimited power and replication capacity, it's possible that things just started to break and couldn't be replaced as easily, leading to a technological regression where the knowledge isn't necessarily lost, but constraints in production capacity / infrastructure prevent translating that knowledge into available / usable technology.

I know that dilitium was used to stabilize a matter / anti matter reaction that produced the power needed for a starship to travel at warp, but was dilitium used for other things as well? If a matter / anti matter reaction was also used to provide power to planets (replicator infrastructure, etc.), shipyards, starbases, etc. and all of that exploded when the dilitium went inert, that could have been far more devastating then what we saw in S3.

 

[fireproof78]

I know that dilitium was used to stabilize a matter / anti matter reaction that produced the power needed for a starship to travel at warp, but was dilitium used for other things as well? If a matter / anti matter reaction was also used to provide power to planets (replicator infrastructure, etc.), shipyards, starbases, etc. and all of that exploded when the dilitium went inert, that could have been far more devastating then what we saw in S3.

That was my general impression even in Season 3 is that dilithium was utilized far more ubiquitously than even before, either for convivence, or as a simplification due to the Temporal Wars involving tech from multiple time frames being encountered. The destruction of the dilithium reduced that power generating capability and so replacement parts were not done as often and it shifted from a bit more of a scarcity model.

Which, honestly, I think could be explored more as an interesting commentary in of it self.

 

[nic3636]

That was my general impression even in Season 3 is that dilithium was utilized far more ubiquitously than even before, either for convivence, or as a simplification due to the Temporal Wars involving tech from multiple time frames being encountered. The destruction of the dilithium reduced that power generating capability and so replacement parts were not done as often and it shifted from a bit more of a scarcity model.

Which, honestly, I think could be explored more as an interesting commentary in of it self.

Yeah, that also fits in with what we know about replicators, where the amount of power required to replicate an object increases exponentially as the size and complexity of the replicated object increases. I could see the future being heavily reliant on replicator technology and the large amount of power required to operate it (meaning replicators basically need dilitium to function beyond replicating simple objects).

 

[jackoverfull]

There is something to be said for roads constructed by Romans 2,000 or more years ago still being usable while highways built in the past half-century are falling apart. Those Romans, to paraphrase the People's Front of Judea in The Life of Brian, got something right despite feelings to the contrary.

that’s a long-standing myth. First of all, those roads are not made to support trucks and heavy traffic, secondly, they are economically unviable.

 

[F. King Daniel]

that’s a long-standing myth. First of all, those roads are not made to support trucks and heavy traffic, secondly, they are economically unviable.

Similarly, transwarp beaming is not always safe