News Foundation Adaptation Series Officially Ordered by Apple

[Brobdingnag]

...
I agree that they seem to be stretching keeping the cast to keep them a part of the show, when it SHOULD be about a long term saga. But it's so hard to let go of Jared Harris -- a great actor.

Jared Harris (Aka Hari Seldon) is the only one who keeps coming back in the books and so he's the only one that they don't have to make a special effort to keep around.

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to keep him as a holographic advisor of the second foundation for example.

 

[Marc]

I wonder if they'll respect that or find a way to keep the dynasty alive to give these three actors something to do.

On the casting of the Cleons, could just be me but there's a resemblance between Lee Pace and Terrance Mann so I can see Day become Dusk.

But in the scenes between Dawn and Dusk, there's a noticeable height difference between the actors which jars a bit when they're presenting as going from one to another (and yes I know you can loose some of your height as you get older but still).

then again the heights are all over the place. Just had a look - Pace is 6"5, Mann is 6" and Bilton 6"2.

Disbelief will need more suspension

 

[Brobdingnag]

On the casting of the Cleons, could just be me but there's a resemblance between Lee Pace and Terrance Mann so I can see Day become Dusk.

Well, it makes sense that the casting team kept in mind that these three should sort of look alike.

But in the scenes between Dawn and Dusk, there's a noticeable height difference between the actors which jars a bit when they're presenting as going from one to another (and yes I know you can loose some of your height as you get older but still).

then again the heights are all over the place. Just had a look - Pace is 6"5, Mann is 6" and Bilton 6"2.

Disbelief will need more suspension

This is all the more surprising that with modern special effects you can easily make someone seem taller or shorter than they are in reality.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Trantor is supposed to fall before the arrival of the Mule and that means no more Cleons. I wonder if they'll respect that or find a way to keep the dynasty alive to give these three actors something to do.

Actually the last remnants of the Imperial family show up having run to another planet after Trantor was sacked so they can still show up.

 

[Brobdingnag]

Actually the last remnants of the Imperial family show up having run to another planet after Trantor was sacked so they can still show up.

Yeah, with the "emperor" totally senile and his son (according to Pritcher himself) a perverted imbecile (that was killed by the clown/Mule), IOW not much to talk about.

 

[FPAlpha]

I'd prefer it if they took Psychohistory seriously and devised plots where the characters found that the plan worked out exactly as Hari's recording in the Vault described - their actions being more forced by historical necessity rather than individual volition. The psi powers of the Mule derailing the plan would then be much more shocking to them. At the moment, it seems like Psychohistory means zip without constant intervention.

Well, i'm not sure there's interventions at all.

Psychohistory is a very broad science as explained a few times in the show - it probably just predicted a boiling point between Anacreon, Thespin and Terminus with the solution to combine forces and form the nucleus of a new Empire. The details of the boiling point, in this case a legendary and unstoppable warship, is not important - it was just an event or catalyst to bring the 3 planets together, at least that's my theory because the show has veered so far away from the book it is now its own thing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, i'm not sure there's interventions at all.

Psychohistory is a very broad science as explained a few times in the show - it probably just predicted a boiling point between Anacreon, Thespin and Terminus with the solution to combine forces and form the nucleus of a new Empire. The details of the boiling point, in this case a legendary and unstoppable warship, is not important - it was just an event or catalyst to bring the 3 planets together, at least that's my theory because the show has veered so far away from the book it is now its own thing.

I think it's a con.

He can map a future time line but there is no certainty that the hundred trillion people in the universe are going to follow it for a thousand years.

Which is why they need the second foundation for course correction, and prune back any serious detours.

 

[David cgc]

The details of the boiling point, in this case a legendary and unstoppable warship, is not important - it was just an event or catalyst to bring the 3 planets together, at least that's my theory because the show has veered so far away from the book it is now its own thing.

The presence of the ship, incredibly, seems to be something Seldon predicted; In his first scene in the first episode, we see him working on his notes, and he draws the Invictus and then flicks it over to the outer edge of a galactic map.

If I were going to fill in the specific chain of logic, he could've deduced that the ship's jump drive had been firing randomly, and that the only people sufficiently motivated to attempt to recover it would be one of the restive outer-rim planets which he predicted coming in to open revolution, and their only source for the requisite technical knowledge to actually operate the ship would be the Foundation. Thus, Seldon's first crisi-tunity, as Homer would say.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Did Seldon also predict the destruction of the Star Bridge? The Anacreonians might not have been so militant had that not happened and shared in bearing the brutal reprisal meted out. Predicting that it was likely going to happen and not giving any warning seems very cold and callous but perhaps he was sacrificing millions to save trillions. It might also have turned the spotlight of suspicion on him and his followers. We haven't yet had it confirmed who was really responsible.

 

[FPAlpha]

I think it's a con.

He can map a future time line but there is no certainty that the hundred trillion people in the universe are going to follow it for a thousand years.

Which is why they need the second foundation for course correction, and prune back any serious detours.

That's exactly what happens but the Second Foundation needs to work in secret or it may influence the first Foundation thus derailing the whole plan. The Second Foundation is both failsafe and guardian of the whole plan Seldon put into motion.

The presence of the ship, incredibly, seems to be something Seldon predicted; In his first scene in the first episode, we see him working on his notes, and he draws the Invictus and then flicks it over to the outer edge of a galactic map.

If I were going to fill in the specific chain of logic, he could've deduced that the ship's jump drive had been firing randomly, and that the only people sufficiently motivated to attempt to recover it would be one of the restive outer-rim planets which he predicted coming in to open revolution, and their only source for the requisite technical knowledge to actually operate the ship would be the Foundation. Thus, Seldon's first crisi-tunity, as Homer would say.

Rewatched it and you're right, he draws the shape of the Invictus but if he indeed planned for the appearance of the ship then the entire premise of Psychohistory is bullshit because it would be such a specific event that Psychohistory is simply not designed to predict. As Seldon never tires to explain Psychohistory deals with the movement of the masses, individuals and single events don't matter.

Did Seldon also predict the destruction of the Star Bridge? The Anacreonians might not have been so militant had that not happened and shared in bearing the brutal reprisal meted out. Predicting that it was likely going to happen and not giving any warning seems very cold and callous but perhaps he was sacrificing millions to save trillions. It might also have turned the spotlight of suspicion on him and his followers. We haven't yet had it confirmed who was really responsible.

The specific event of the Star Bridge destruction couldn't be predicted but the general event of Outer Rim regions or planets starting revolts is certainly within the scope of Psychohistory.

It could have been a group of people smuggling in some super WMD and detonating it on Trantor or anything else on that scope - the important thing is that it is a visible sign of Trantor, and thus the Empire, slowly starting to lose control over the Empire ( and i believe it is confirmed to be Anacreon, which is why they were bombed as punishment).

 

[David cgc]

Rewatched it and you're right, he draws the shape of the Invictus but if he indeed planned for the appearance of the ship then the entire premise of Psychohistory is bullshit because it would be such a specific event that Psychohistory is simply not designed to predict. As Seldon never tires to explain Psychohistory deals with the movement of the masses, individuals and single events don't matter.

Yeah, but he also describes his prediction of his impending arrest and trial in mathematical terms, and given the relative scales, the Foundation itself is an example of individuals (for instance, Hari Seldon himself) affecting the predictions.

I've been interpreting it as being a bit like weather prediction. Seldon's developed a "climate model" for history, but the same principles can be used for smaller cases on shorter timeframes, predicting his arrest, or the survival rate of settlers on Terminus.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yes, Seldon also predicted what would happen to individuals in the original trilogy. Asimov wasn't terribly consistent about Psychohistory.

Many of the original stories were serialised before being published as the trilogy. The introductory story with Gaal Dornick's arrival on Trantor was written specially for the first novel. Perhaps Asimov had changed his mind about the capabilities of Psychohistory. Maybe he didn't care that much about being consistent. He probably needed an editor who would point out the inconsistencies.

After chaos theory was better understood in our world, Asimov tried to patch things up using the sequels and prequels, adding in elements from his other works. I wonder if he really would have been able to tie everything up successfully had he had time to write the final novel.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The final pages of the final novel would have had a coronation where the last mayor of Terminus became the new Emperor of the Galaxy... As a psychohistorian barges in, announcing to all that the New galactic Empire is doomed.

 

[Skipper]

Psychohistory is the typical plot device if you think too much about it falls apart. I liked how it was treated more in the first three original novels, where it was the sci-fi equivalent of "Ancient Prophecy", rather than in the sequels and prequels where they try to give it some scientific basis.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The final pages of the final novel would have had a coronation where the last mayor of Terminus became the new Emperor of the Galaxy... As a psychohistorian barges in, announcing to all that the New galactic Empire is doomed.

I got the impression that Asimov envisioned some sort of hive-mind Galactic gestalt - the ultimate Communist state, although he would never have committed that notion to print. Overcoming the dichotomy between settlers and spacers was the last crisis to be resolved - possibly by everyone becoming more like the Solarians from Foundation and Earth - except not regarding physical human contact as taboo.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seldon may have destroyed the star bridge.

None of his darkest timeline bullshit would have worked without that happening.

 

[yotsuya]

It's an entertaining enough sily space opera, but I too wish they'd actually delve into how psychohistory works. I guess that's not the show. Felt like there were way too many twists in the Cleon story this week, just felt silly by the end. And Salvor, who is always hyper competent, failing to properly secure Phara just so they could have one finally showdown was really dumb (at least Phara's dead now!)

But it's entertaining enough to watch.

Even Asimov didn't delve into the workings of psychohistory. So the show really shouldn't either.

And even though the stories comment about how individuals are not important to psychohistory, the stories are very individual dependant. Salvor Hardin personally resolves the first two crisis. That trend continues with individuals steering the stories and the outcome. Asomov makes it seem like the plan is not dependent on the people, but as a writer he did make the outcome come down to the individuals at the apex of the crisis.

 

[Skipper]

Even Asimov didn't delve into the workings of psychohistory.

He tried a little bit in the prequels. It was akward.

 

[Brobdingnag]

The final pages of the final novel would have had a coronation where the last mayor of Terminus became the new Emperor of the Galaxy... As a psychohistorian barges in, announcing to all that the New galactic Empire is doomed.

As it turns out now the final pages would be the Galaxy turning into a superorganism...

 

[Brobdingnag]

He tried a little bit in the prequels. It was akward.

I don't think Asimov believed that there could be such a thing as psychohistory, just as he very likely didn't believe in telepathy, much less that it could work FTL across half of the galaxy. It's hard to develop on something you know can't possibly exist.

Godwin be damned, take Hitler for example, at some point he was making questionable strategic decisions against the advice of his generals (they even tried to assassinate him and failed). Had they succeeded, the war may have gone completely different from that point on and this just because of one bomb that would have exploded say one minute sooner or later, and history is filled with events like that.