Was the fact that the Federation was infiltrated by shapeshifters ever concluded? Presumably they wouldnt be affected by the Virus since they werent in the Link. It also stands to reason that the klingons, Romulans,etc also had shapeshifter infiltrators. With that in mind, it doesnt seem that the surrender is really a surrender, just a method to buy time. The wormhole is reopened so Jem'Hadar ships can come through and shapeshifters have some time to assume some real positions of power. Shouldnt this have been addressed in the last episode?
Speaking of Alpha Quadrant Shapeshifters
- Thread starter scorpius1701
- Start date
It's possible that the shapeshifter spies might have been affected by the virus because presumably they might have gone back to Great Link or linked with another Founder to relay the information that they acquired. They pretty muched dropped the idea of shapeshifter spies after they resolved the whole Martok affair, but it is an interesting thing to think about. For one thing, I think the Dominion could still use spies to gather intelligence and replace people after the treaty because there's really nothing to stop them from doing it unless the Fed/Klingons/Romulans have developed stronger security measures to prevent shapeshifters from infultrating them. The question is whether or not it's worth the risk for them to get caught because whoever they try to spy on will certainly see it as an act of war if they were to catch a shapeshifter.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Do we know when Odo was infected? and did all changelings infiltrating the AQ stay away from the link the entire time before the mining of the wormhole? It seem most likely the link was infected for quite some time and all changelings got infected, it just took time for it to take effect.
According to most sources Odo was probably infected during the "Paradise Lost" / "Homefront" episodes which is when Starfleet Medical had full access to him. It's possible that if the shapeshifter spies stayed away from the Link or other Founders that they were not infected, but it must be a very small number of them if that was the case.
Yeah the Dominion only surrendered becasue the wormhole was closed and they couldnt reinforce themselves. Now its apparently open again. Is the Federation allowed through to explore the Gamma Quadrant now? Thats what started the whole thing in the first place. Dang, the war thing needed a little more wrap up than odo going, "there. all better!"
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
The female changeling stopped the war because she linked with Odo and odo this time had the ability to make her see his point of view on the whole matter, all the times before she always controlled HIM and altered HIS view on things, this time round he did it and convinced HER to stop the war.
Yeah i know, i saw the episode but i cant say that i entirely buy that. This wasnt the first time that Odo had linked with her, she would have been privy to his point of view from the very beginning of season 3 but she obviously didnt accept that. Then all of a sudden, she changes her mind? Think about what was going on at the time. Shes infected with a disease, she cant get reinforcements through the wormhole, the Cardassians are acting up, and the Federation is knocking on the door. Then here comes Odo whom shes linked with before and knows his thoughts, who cures her and says that the Federation is willing to sit down. What was she going to do? She now has a way out. I dont think, given her characterization before, that shes abouve deceiving Odo (especially when she gets a cure out of the deal).
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
But you fail to realise the power of the link and the control that is given to the dominant changeling during a link, the female changeling in previous eps when completely linked with Odo was able to manipulate him and change his own point of view, she was able to bring him closer to her side making him completely ignore his own personal experiences, its much like an adult manipulating a child. Odo in the end learned how to do this himself and knew how to prevent her from taking dominance during a meld and was able to force more thoughts and emotions onto the female changeling finally breaking her arrogant and ignorant view of solids.
It is never ever stablished that in the Link, one changeling holds sway over the others. Thats contrary to the entire concept of the Link where its portrayed as an equal excahnge. And even assuming that what you say is true, wouldnt Odo be overwhelmed the minute he steps back in the Link in the GQ? No, the Female knew Odo's point of view right from Day 1 but she only availed herself of it when it suited her purpose. Look at it from her POV. The Federation sent ships into areas where it was warned against, theyve infected them with a disease YEARS before war actually broke out, and now theyre knocking on the door. You really think that when Odo comes down, cures her, and says "now we'll give you one more chance," that she wouldnt jump at that opportunity to buy a little breathing room. In the finale, we see that the wormhole is reopened and ships can pass through. Whats now to stop a huge Jem'Hadar fleet from popping through, blowing up the station, and setting up shop on Bajor? We know the Dominion has the resources. The fact that no mention is ever made of the changeling inflitrators sort of speaks to the fact that this is just a stall tactic. The Dominion, as written, uses duplicity to achieve their goals. Probably the only reason why we didnt see any of this was that the show ended and the writers wanted a happy ending, despite the fact that it flies in the face of what came before.
Possibly, not there might be a little more to it.
Odo got disease in season 4 (for sake of argument).
Odo became human for a little bit in Season 5.
Odo became shapeshifter again in late season 5.
Odo shows signs of disease in season 7.
Something doesn't fit. After Odo became a shape-shifter again, he only linked with the Female Founder once (or at least one series) during the Occupation Arc in season 6. Presumably that is when she got it. So, when did Odo get it?
My guess, Odo did indeed get it during season 4 and gave it to them by "Broken Link." Once he became human and a shape-shifter again, he lost the disease. But, as cruel fate would allow, he got it again when linked with the Female Founder in season 6. This would somewhat explain why Odo started to show symptoms after the Female Founder did (even though, supposedly, he was infected first).
That makes sense since the Odo in Children of Time lived for several hundred years past when he should have died.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Go rewatch the episodes then because its plane to see the instant effects she has on odo when they link.
What about the FACT that O'Brien was replaced by a Changeling in Homefront/Paradise Lost? That was never mentioned again! Then just went on as if the real O'Brien was still on the show.
I recently watched the entire series. It seems pretty obvious that Odo is overwhelmed because hes finally being given, all at once, everything thats hes ever wanted to know about his people. The definition of the Link, according to everybody thats commented on it, is that its an equal sharing of ideas. The very notion that one of the shapeshifters would somehow take precedence while in the Link, is against the very concept. Odo is overwhelmed because his entire life, hes been completely alone, now not only has he found his people, but he can actually SHARE their existence. Its a powerful thing and THATS the reason why hes so affected by the Link.
It's not as if the O'Brien ever were "replaced". It's just that the Changeling agent on Earth at one point decided to take the shape of O'Brien when speaking to Sisko, even though Sisko fully well knew that this couldn't be O'Brien, and that the real O'Brien was back at the station all the time.
We heard this agent say that there were four Founders on Earth. But we probably shouldn't believe any of that. The Founder would have had every reason to lie about the exact number of agents, really.
Timo Saloniemi
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
I can see no reason why the changeling would lie, it makes no difference whether they said there was 2 or a hundred, sisko wouldnt be able to do anything with that info anyway and the changelings are so arrogant it would probably be more than happy to give the correct number.
What if more showed up later though? Theyre putting a lot on Faux'Brien's word.
Didn't Admiral Layton (Shapeshifter) link with Odo though? That could have been how it was spread.
^True, the admiral Layton imposter was probably infected which would mean that even if he didn't return to the Great Link, he might have linked with the other shapeshifter spies in the Alpha Quadrant and spread it to them as well.
I for one, think that the female shapeshifter didn't exactly change her mind about solids from her final link with Odo. She mentioned before that Odo's return to the link was even more important to her than the war. Even though she manipulated and used Odo when it suited her, she still cared about him and viewed Odo as a vital part missing from the Great Link. By promising Odo that she would end the war she was bargaining with him to return to the link not just to cure them but to share the wealth of his knowledge and experience with solids. It may not exactly "change" the Founders or alter their views, but they might at least gain some insight into what lead Odo to become so loyal to some solids.
I for one, think that the female shapeshifter didn't exactly change her mind about solids from her final link with Odo. She mentioned before that Odo's return to the link was even more important to her than the war. Even though she manipulated and used Odo when it suited her, she still cared about him and viewed Odo as a vital part missing from the Great Link. By promising Odo that she would end the war she was bargaining with him to return to the link not just to cure them but to share the wealth of his knowledge and experience with solids. It may not exactly "change" the Founders or alter their views, but they might at least gain some insight into what lead Odo to become so loyal to some solids.
But, as Garak would put it, why tell the truth when a lie will do?
The Founders aren't famed for their honesty. Indeed, just about every bit of "information" they have ever "revealed" has turned out to be false, or at least has never been objectively verified. They even lie to each other, planting false information in Odo's jello head.
To say that there are four Founders on Earth would be a particularly devious lie. Four is a number that Earth's security forces might plausibly track down and eliminate, after years upon years of effort. But if there were only three, then even the failure and capture of all these agents would be a victory of sorts, as Earth would continue to waste resources in search of the nonexistent Fourth Founder. And if there were six, Earth would stop short of nailing them all. If there were fifty-eight, four could be deliberately sacrificed for strategic gain, or their deaths could be faked (as faking is something that comes naturally for a Founder).
Timo Saloniemi
